Is this a 64amp battery?

[faico_26]

Hi,
This is the label on the batteries of my Sunrise Q300R.
On the Sunrise order form they say it is a "powerful 64amp battery" but I can see it is 64ah on C20. However on C5 it is 55ah. So when we say a bettery is 40ah, 50 ah, etc, do we always refer to C20??

[martin007]

do we always refer to C20??

True.

[faico_26]

do we always refer to C20??

True.

Thanks! I was concerned that they had given me a 55ah battery. 64ah is not so bad I guess.

[Burgerman]

Your battery has no fixed capacity.
The lower the impedance the more of its Ah you can use when discharging faster. This was discovered by an evil german called peukert.

Your battery can give 75Ah over 100 hours. 64 over 20h, 55 over a 5 hour period.
But think about this.

You get up, go in the street, drive at your 10kph or 6.2 miles per hour for TWO hours and you have covered 12.4 miles. At this point your battery will be flashing a red light on the joystick. Thats if its new and healthy.

The TWO hour rate (or 2 HOUR to cover 12 to 15 miles at 6.2mph), is only around half the capacity you would get at the 20 hour rate. We dont use a battery at the 5 or 20 or 100h rates. Your 64Ah battery is dead at 12 to 15 miles, and you used approx 32Ah only.

So the RATE of battery discharge is ALL IMPORTANT.
A lead battery with double the Ah, will give you THREE times as much range.
Conversely a battery with half the capacity will give you a lot less than 1/3rd of the range. You might get a quarter. Or the resistance may be so high it wont barely even move when fully charged. And gets worse as it discharges.

So swapping a 64Ah battery for an 80Ah battery actually almost doubles the range.
Thats a GRP 34 compared to a 24, or a 22nf.

Now to try and understand this - and to try and explain why a LOW IMPEDANCE battery is better - just think about this.

The old MK grp24 is a 4 to 4.5mOhm impedance 74Ah battery at the 20h rate.
The Odyssey PC1500 is 2.5mOhm impedance. (HALF the impedance) And is only a 62Ah battery tested down to the same very 10.8V over 20 hours.
The Odyssey however gives MORE range in most cases than the MK in spite of being smaller capacity. And if used hard will definitely give superior range. And performance. Because the voltage drops less under load, so more torque and the battery has a smaller Peukert value. And so can be discharged more completely at a higher rate.

So if you use a battery hard, the smaller but lower impedance Odyssey both takes you further, gives better torque and performance, and also charges a fair bit faster too. Ah isnt as important as impedance and actual load! Thats why I say 6mph on small batteries or a 120A power module is a bad idea.

And a small battery will also get discharged further by percentage daily. So die and shrink way way faster too.

[faico_26]

Your battery has no fixed capacity.
The lower the impedance the more of its Ah you can use when discharging faster. This was discovered by an evil german called peukert.

Your battery can give 75Ah over 100 hours. 64 over 20h, 55 over a 5 hour period.
But think about this.

You get up, go in the street, drive at your 10kph or 6.2 miles per hour for TWO hours and you have covered 12.4 miles. At this point your battery will be flashing a red light on the joystick. Thats if its new and healthy.

The TWO hour rate (or 2 HOUR to cover 12 to 15 miles at 6.2mph), is only around half the capacity you would get at the 20 hour rate. We dont use a battery at the 5 or 20 or 100h rates. Your 64Ah battery is dead at 12 to 15 miles, and you used approx 32Ah only.

So the RATE of battery discharge is ALL IMPORTANT.
A lead battery with double the Ah, will give you THREE times as much range.
Conversely a battery with half the capacity will give you a lot less than 1/3rd of the range. You might get a quarter. Or the resistance may be so high it wont barely even move when fully charged. And gets worse as it discharges.

So swapping a 64Ah battery for an 80Ah battery actually almost doubles the range.
Thats a GRP 34 compared to a 24, or a 22nf.

Now to try and understand this - and to try and explain why a LOW IMPEDANCE battery is better - just think about this.

The old MK grp24 is a 4 to 4.5mOhm impedance 74Ah battery at the 20h rate.
The Odyssey PC1500 is 2.5mOhm impedance. (HALF the impedance) And is only a 62Ah battery tested down to the same very 10.8V over 20 hours.
The Odyssey however gives MORE range in most cases than the MK in spite of being smaller capacity. And if used hard will definitely give superior range. And performance. Because the voltage drops less under load, so more torque and the battery has a smaller Peukert value. And so can be discharged more completely at a higher rate.

So if you use a battery hard, the smaller but lower impedance Odyssey both takes you further, gives better torque and performance, and also charges a fair bit faster too. Ah isnt as important as impedance and actual load! Thats why I say 6mph on small batteries or a 120A power module is a bad idea.

And a small battery will also get discharged further by percentage daily. So die and shrink way way faster too.

Excellent explanation, thanks for your time BM!!

[Burgerman]

I used to sell batts.
The A04 is a light duty AGM battery and not a deep cycle traction battery. It wont last 5 mins in a chair compared to gel. And even worse where the battery is too small as these AGMs are they dont much like heavy deep cycle use. And thats what happens on small batteries. So a double whammy...

Compared to the G04 or G06 GEL traction batteries by eternity as is fitted as stock on Grp24 chairs by sunrise.
Which are identical to the GEL Haze EV 80Ah battery you find on eBay. With a different label.

https://www.eternitytechnologies.co.za/ ... ge-G04.pdf G04 the GEL version... 450 to 500 cycles.

https://www.eternitytechnologies.co.za/ ... ge-A04.pdf A04 350 cycles. But maybe the gel ones are not available in that small size?

[Burgerman]

I am an encyclopedia...

[faico_26]

I used to sell batts.
The A04 is a light duty AGM battery and not a deep cycle traction battery. It wont last 5 mins in a chair compared to gel. And even worse where the battery is too small as these AGMs are they dont much like heavy deep cycle use. And thats what happens on small batteries. So a double whammy...

Compared to the G04 or G06 GEL traction batteries by eternity as is fitted as stock on Grp24 chairs by sunrise.
Which are identical to the GEL Haze EV 80Ah battery you find on eBay. With a different label.

https://www.eternitytechnologies.co.za/ ... ge-G04.pdf G04 the GEL version... 450 to 500 cycles.

https://www.eternitytechnologies.co.za/ ... ge-A04.pdf A04 350 cycles. But maybe the gel ones are not available in that small size?

Depending on the country, Sunrise offers different batteries for the q300R, maximum 64ah.
For example in Sunrise.com (general web) they say:
QML160016 Battery 50 Ah, GEL, Maintenance Free -
QML160013 Battery, 55Ah/56 Ah, Maintenance-Free 404
QML160009 Omit Batteries
But in Sunrise Spain now they say:
QML160001 Baterías de 60 Ah, gel. However, they gave me 64ah AGM. So you never know what you will eventually get.
This link informs about the batteries for the Q300R but they do NOT indicate the proper battery for 4 pole: https://www.sunrisedice.com/asset-bank/assetfile/63002.pdf
To sum up, a 64ah AGM battery is worse for example than a 60 GEL battery?

Thanks,
faico

[Burgerman]

That depends what your criteria of "worse" is.

AGM batteries CAN be very low impedance. Such as the Odyssey ones. Those will be much better under a heavy load in so far as more of their capacity is ACCESSIBLE in heavy loaded conditions than ANY other battery on the planet. They only offer a 400 to 45 cycle life however.

Cheap or "deep cycle" capable AGM batteries are almost always higher impedance. That means you will get big voltage drops under load, worse performance and control, and what you expect from basic chinese AGMs.

SOME AGMs are optimised for CAPACITY.
SOME AGMs are optimised for impedance, like Odyssey/Optima.
Some AGMs are optimised for CYCLE LIFE. So 500 to 550 cycles and that can match GEL.

But with all lead batteries that have to fit inside a fixed sized or volume casing like say the GRP 24 size, 22nf, 34 etc then the following is true.

Theres THREE competing parameters.
RESISTANCE (measured as impedance because you need to use AC) and this also determines the Peukert level.
CAPACITY (measured in Ah)
CYCLE LIFE (typically measured at 80% discharged level until only 80% of the RATED capacity remains when tested at the 20h rate.

Increase ANY of these 3 and the other two get worse.
Increase any 2 of these three and the 3rd one gets REALLY bad!

Its a triangle.

So whats best?
That depends on what you want.
If you live near hills, ramps, off road, are heavy or your chair is. If you have it programmed to RESPOND, or your battery isnt big enough for the job as most are not then you need to prioritise IMPEDANCE and lower is better. And so now, Cycle life, or Ah (or both) MUST get worse.

If you have a bigger battery like 80 or 100Ah, and have a chair programmed in full stock hovercraft mode, dont do ramps, hills, heavy carpets, and are a 7 stone balerina, in a lightweight low speed chair then you would want to optimise Ah or CYCLE life depending on what is important to you. Because low impedance isnt a prolem here.

If you want to be able to wack a load of power back in at 30 or 50A such as power soccer between matches, or to go out again in an evening you want LOW IMPEDANCE odyssey as that can charge 95% FULL FROM DEAD IN AN HOUR. It climb a steep ramp when 90% DISCHARGED. It can start a truck in siberia too.
But it wont have the best range or cycle life in LIGHT use. Like the ballerina.

Does that help?

GEL can have a good balance for most people. NOT the biggest capacity, average impedance, and 500 to 550 cycles. So it suits most people in average chairs with hovercraft programming and GRP 24 batts. So MK GEL, G04 Eternity, EV GEL Haze, etc.

[Burgerman]

Best bet, scrap the lot, fit at least double the Ah of lithium. More if it can fit. Theres NO peukert, and theres almost no impedance ssues as long as you fit a sensible sized pack. Its possible to get 5x the range, less mass. More torque. More speed. decades of lifespan. And its now CHEAPER than lead unless you pay bounders ransom of 4500 dollars for only 100Ah!

Its typically a few hundred dollars (350 to 450?) now to fit 244Ah, 5x (500%) the range, decades of service life, rapid charge capability, and better torque...