Invacare gb motors

[Burgerman]

It works because its a scooter. As a 4x4 skid steer it would not turn at all.

[foghornleghorn]

I was thinking along the lines of the Observer 4x4 that seems to steer by destroying all 4 tyres at once.


youtu.be/dFwK-UcEcWE

[Burgerman]

yES thats steers and is a powerchair. Not a scooter it uses tank steer mixing and its got a max speed of 3mph because any more and it hasnt got enough torque to turn at all.

[denis.b]

Buongiorno a tutti,
la mia carrozzina è in continua evoluzione e adesso vorrei sostituire la mia scheda artigianale che comanda luci, frecce, schienale, pedaline ecc.. con la R-Net “ISM 6L” .
Vorrei riuscire a programmarla senza dover acquistare il software e il suo programmatore;
Chiedo a voi se sapete il tipo di comunicazione dati che usa per attuare i comandi e se è possibile riuscire a programmare le varie funzioni degli attuatori (accelerazione, velocità, forza ecc..) .
Proverò a collegare l’oscilloscopio tra joystick e centralina per capire che segnale viene trasmesso ad ogni comando, luci, frecce, ecc.. per dopo inviarlo uguale tramite Pic.
Ringrazio da subito chiunque mi aiuterà
Saluti
Denis

[Burgerman]

IN ENGLISH:

Re: Invacare gb motors

Unread postby denis.b » Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:12 pm
Good morning everyone,
my wheelchair is constantly evolving and now I would like to replace my handcrafted card that controls lights, arrows, backrest, pedals, etc. with the R-Net "ISM 6L".
I would like to be able to program it without having to buy the software and its programmer;
I ask you if you know the type of data communication it uses to implement the commands and if it is possible to be able to program the various functions of the actuators (acceleration, speed, force, etc.).
I will try to connect the oscilloscope between the joystick and the control unit to understand what signal is transmitted to each command, lights, arrows, etc.. to then send it the same via Pic.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me

[ex-Gooserider]

R-Net uses the CAN-bus protocol, basically the same as what is used in modern cars. The problem is that while the protocol and signal formats are defined, what those codes MEAN is not... What each command means and does is proprietary information and not available to us peasants, so it is not readily possible to talk to R-net hardware with anything other than parts from R-net.

ex-Gooserider

[denis.b]

Buongiorno, immaginavo che non sia facile.
Allora non c'è possibilità di attuare un comando se non si dispone di joystick e programmatori R-net.
Non posso inviare dati con protocollo CAN-bus e abilitare le uscite?
Nessuno è riuscito a codificare i comandi per quella centralina?
Grazie,
Denis

[Burgerman]

Good morning, I imagined it is not easy. Then there is no possibility to implement a command if you do not have joysticks and R-net programmers. Can't I send data with CAN-bus protocol and enable outputs? Has no one been able to code the commands for that control unit? Thank you Denis

No. IF its possible, you may be the first! But theres a lot of possible programming that lives in the power module, that controls speeds, feedback, loads, currents, auto detection of endpoints, inhibits etc. I think realistically its impossible. Or impractical. Lots of taking happening between R-Net system and seating module. You might get something basic to work? But lose out on most of the functionality. But you could do that with a bunch of relays and your own home made module.

[denis.b]

Buongiorno a tutti, volevo chiedere se è possibile riprogrammare la centralina MKIV GB per rimuovere il limite di velocità che interviene a circa 12,5 km/h e decelera la carrozzina fino all'arresto.
Forse è possibile modificare la centralina aumentare i giri e la velocità?
Allego foto della centralina e delle nuove batterie lifepo4 da 280Ah che aumentano l'autonomia della carrozzina 4x4 di tantissimo soprattutto su strade in salita dove abito in montagna!
Ringrazio per tutti i consigli e informazioni che mi avete dato.
Grazie

[Burgerman]

Good morning everyone, I wanted to ask if it's possible to reprogram the MKIV GB control unit to remove the speed limit that kicks in at about 12.5 km/h and decelerates the wheelchair to a stop.
Perhaps it's possible to modify the control unit to increase the rpm and speed?
I'm attaching photos of the control unit and the new 280Ah LiFePO4 batteries, which greatly increase the range of the 4x4 wheelchair, especially on uphill roads where I live in the mountains!
Thank you for all the advice and information you've given me.
Thank you

As far as I know the voltage would need to be increased. But you cant do that realistically as the power module will release its magic smoke.

Do you want a programmer?

[denis.b]

Grazie per aver risposto. Ho già il programmatore ma purtroppo non permette di programmare la velocità altre i 12Km/h. Essendo motori Brushless per aumentare i giri basta aumentare la frequenza degli impulsi, ma è tutto gestito dalla centralina.

[Burgerman]

Cant read that really!

What version of the programmer do you have?

You cannot increase speed though.

[denis.b]

Buongiorno, il mio programmatore è come quello da foto allegata. la velocità in avanti è già al 100% ma vorrei aumentarla.
Qualcuno ha provato a comandare quei motori con una centralina diversa in modo da impostare giri, accelerazione, potenza ecc..
Grazie per avermi sempre aiutato!

[LROBBINS]

dubito che sia possibile. I motori senza settole fanno la commutazione eletttronica passando la corrente tra diverse paia di poli ekìlettromagnetici, ed è la frequenza della commutazione che determina la velocità. I motori GB hanno moltiplici poli eletttromagnetici per sostituire per l'ingrannaggio che non c'è. Non penso che esistono altri controllatori in grado di gestirli e di sicuro Invacare non indicarebbe come cambiare la frequenza della commutazioni anche se fosse possibile. Mi dispiace. Ciao da Siena, Lenni

[Burgerman]

Can I get anchovies with that?

[LROBBINS]

No

[Burgerman]

Max RPM is also limited by the motor "generator" effect. As it spins at it max 8mph, the magnets in the outer rim, and the coils inside that drum generate 24V nominally. So to turn it faster needs 24V being generated, plus whatever you need to increase that speed...

So a 50% speed increase will need 24V (motor generates at 8mph) + 12v = 36 volts total that the system isnt designed for. To get to 12mph.

[denis.b]

Buonasera, ho testato delle centraline "Invacare MK4 GB Power Wheelchair Control Module 1109528" con diverse versioni firmware. Programmandole tutte allo stesso modo con velocità 100%, solo quella come foto allegata arriva a fare 190 giri/min.
Tutte altre centraline arrivano a 160 giri/minuto. Significa che la velocità massima viene impostata con il firmware scritto nel processore della centralina. Ho bisogno di un'altra centralina che arrivi a 190 giri/minuto.
Vi chiedo se è possibile aggiornare il firmware di queste centraline.
Tanti saluti e Grazie!

[Burgerman]

Those controllers were used on 4, 6 and 8mph powerchairs. The max possible speed wen programmed to 100% is 8mph. The 4 and 6 mph ones are simply limited in programming. And depending on where you are looking and which version of the programmer you may not see it. You cannot make a motor spin faster than the full battery voltage allows.

That motor GENERATES 24V as it spins at 8mph. So adding 24V cannot make it faster.

Good evening, I've tested the "Invacare MK4 GB Power Wheelchair Control Module 1109528" controllers with different firmware versions. When I programmed them all the same at 100% speed, only the one in the attached photo reaches 190 rpm.
All the other controllers reach 160 rpm. This means the maximum speed is set by the firmware written into the controller's processor. I need another controller that reaches 190 rpm.
I'm wondering if it's possible to update the firmware on these controllers.
Best regards and thank you!

The comutation frequency if limited in programming or firmware can SLOW a motor from its max free running speed. It cannot overcome the motor generator effect. So as your speed increases you need to apply a higher actual voltage to the motor windings.

If max free running RPM takes 24V, then at that same RPM that motor is generating 24V too. So adding this voltage cannot give more RPMs.
Even brushless chairs go slower as the battery voltage drops at the end of charge exactly like brushed moto chairs do.

If a controller is slower then its in programming as a scaler or voltage % limit. Not in the section marked speed. I did all this when I had that invacare chair. There are 4 levels of access in programming and you need the highest level.

I doubt it's possible. Brushless motors commutate electronically by passing current between different pairs of electromagnetic poles, and it's the commutation frequency that determines the speed. GB motors have multiple electromagnetic poles to replace the missing gear. I don't think there are any other controllers capable of managing them, and Invacare certainly wouldn't indicate how to change the commutation frequency even if it were possible. Sorry. Bye from Siena, Lenni

[Burgerman]

For e.g theres a setting called input demand scaler. This is normally set to less than 100% and that alone limits max allowed voltage (pulsewidth) allowed to the motors. If thats set to say 60% you get a 6mph chair... Set to 50 you get a 4mph chair. The chair makers use it to slow down chairs too.
Its designed to allow a small headroom on 8mph chairs so that a chair doesent slow from full speed when you turn. By limiting motor voltage. Set to 100 for max speed.

Theres other settings that change max motor RPM too. But cant remember all the details. And currently not installed on this PC.

As far as I know, there isnt a way to make them turn faster than the 8mph 190rpm limit. I dont think its a firmware thing. Its just that the 24V unloaded RPM is 190rpm. Its caused by the speed that a magnet passes the windings.

You could do as they do in the hobby world and describe the motor as an "8 rpm per V" motor.

My Quadcopter motors are 3000rpm @ 1V.

[denis.b]

Buonasera, vi ringrazio per la vostra gentilezza e velocità nel rispondere ai miei messaggi.
Sto assemblando una nuova carrozzina sempre 4 ruote motrici e quindi devo avere due centraline che programmate con il mio programmatore con velocità 100% girino entrambe a 190 giri/min.
Purtroppo solo una arriva a 190 giri/min.
Sto cercando di acquistarne una, ma sono ormai introvabili, e poi non ho la certezza che a 27Volt arrivino a 190 giri/min perché dipende da come sono state programmate in fabbrica Invacare.
Ho visto che ci sono due modelli:
1) Invacare MK4 GB Power Wheelchair Control Module 1109528
2) Invacare MK4 GB Power Wheelchair Control Module 1079889
Qualcuno conosce che differenza c'è tra le due?
Come e dove posso trovare una altra centralina uguale alla mia che arrivi a 190 giri/min.
Saluti e grazie mille!

[Burgerman]

I'm assembling a new wheelchair, still with 4WD, so I need two controllers that I can program with my programmer at 100% speed, both rotating at 190 rpm.
Unfortunately, only one reaches 190 rpm.

Both of them...
PLEASE read the above posts!!!

I'm trying to purchase one, but they're now hard to find, and I'm not sure if they'll reach 190 rpm at 27 volts because it depends on how Invacare factory-programmed them.

No it doesent. They both can be reprogrammed BY YOU... READ above posts.

I saw that there are two models:
1) Invacare MK4 GB Power Wheelchair Control Module 1109528
2) Invacare MK4 GB Power Wheelchair Control Module 1079889
Does anyone know the difference between the two?
How and where can I find another controller like mine that reaches 190 rpm?

Not specifically. But on most chairs that use common controllers the parts differences are PROGRAMMING differences related to specific chairs that are PRE PROGRAMMED and so plug and play. On some controllers like the brushless ones it can be such things ar motor cable lengths that fit rear or mis or front drive chairs.

PLEASE read the above posts. Only the very early controllers used on the motors with smaller centre cores, with magnets inside the coils were different. I dont know which ones you are looking at. If they look physically the same they can both be programmed to do 8mph. By you. That is my understanding at least.