Problem with joystick chair did not want to move .-16celius

[yeshelp]

Problem with joystick chair did not want to move .-16celius with a dog on my side OMG.

OMG Tonight i went with my usual quickie 646 se(which have seen worst cold temperatures) to give my dog a walk; we were on the cycling path and i was going fast to have the dog do a bit of trot mixed in between sniffing activity and walk pace. It was bumping quite a bit chair was shaking . At one point the leash got entangled loosely with the axle so it was kind of easy to solve that but when i wanted to start again, the joystick powerbar light and the light of the number of speed i was in was blinking too. I could not see the normal lights and i think i was not able to change the speed number too .Tried to put it on off it was turning off ok but when I was putting back on the same problem was there . It was not raining.

The motor to the touch where not hot externally but could have been internally since I had been rooling fast on uneven terrain. Is this flashing light what the joystick do typically when the motor are too hot ?

I disconnected the wire with the rapid attachement(see pict) and reconnected it but it did not solve the problem. One thing I have to tell you is that i use the joystic in my hand not having it fixed on a swingaway more practical. So sometimes before I have droped the joystick on the ground and maybe sometimes pulled on the cable too much when using it in my hand on the other side of where it passes. Also there as been a little hole in the protective cable in the past, i repaired it one year ago or so by adding flexible glue but it reopened as we can see it the picture . The inside wires were still wearing their own protective insulation tube at first look, red in the picture.

Sometimes when the lights were flashing suddenly all lights got closed for no apparent reason me touching nothing. Sometimes the lights were becoming normal again i could roll but not for long since the started blinking again.(i cannot say if that happened while i was riding or while i was trying to change the number of the speed. Of course when it blinks the chair does not engage the motor so you are stuck. And reality check because the freezing winter surrounded me.

Luckyly I asked people passing if they were willing to follow me to my appartement in case the chair stopped again. I got home ok but now I have a reliability issue with my chair.... !

Can you guys help me do the diagnostic please? The fact that i go out with a puppy bring the stake higher because the cold can get to him . It is important for me to figure out what is the problem .

any ideas?
pictures
https://ibb.co/tBMZrqH
https://ibb.co/9yj12MG

VIDEO of the joystick flashing https://imgur.com/ubKvUa7

thanks

[Burgerman]

Problem with joystick chair did not want to move .-16celius with a dog on my side OMG.

At minus 16C (which is the same temperature as my freezer incidentally) I am not remotely surprised. I wouldnt want to move either.

But seriously temperatures that low affect things like joystick calibration centering (which would cause your error) and all kinds of other stuff like breakers, batteries, etc. No way a motor will be overheating at that temperature and the controller systtem has no way to detect motor temperature even if it was on fire.

Also it all looks ancient, knackered, worn out and hasnt been made for years. If you plan on continuing to use that chair I suggest a total rebuild. Including a modern control system. Or at least a new loom and very thorough test and clean of all components. Same with motors. Could be a worn brush, could be a bad connection, anywhere on the battery, motors, bus cable, brake or the microswitch could be faulty on the freewheel system. Why? Because your life literally DEPENDS on reliability. Death from exposure sat in a chair is a very real possibility or at least serious frostbite in a short time.

If its 0C I stay home. If its -16C stay mome with a fire lit. Heating on. Heat pump running. I think you must be mad!

Sometimes when the lights were flashing suddenly all lights got closed for no apparent reason me touching nothing.

Which sort of points to a intermittent connection or high resistance or oxidation in some connector somewhere or in the breaker, or the motor brushes worn, or some connection or microswitch. Check them all with a multimeter, replace brushes or motors, replace microswitches, check all connections and clean and replug with switchcleaner, replace breaker.

But if it were me I would rebuild it as new mechanically and electrically from scratch. Nothing else would give me any sense of safety.

For one thing, batteries do not work at those temperatures. They are a chemical reaction. That means battery performance like all chemical reactions is proportional to temperature. People are chemical reactions too... Cool yourself from your 37 degrees C and you dont function either.

[yeshelp]

Problem with joystick chair did not want to move .-16celius with a dog on my side OMG.

At minus 16C (which is the same temperature as my freezer incidentally) I am not remotely surprised. I wouldnt want to move either.

But seriously temperatures that low affect things like joystick calibration centering (which would cause your error) and all kinds of other stuff like breakers, batteries, etc. No way a motor will be overheating at that temperature and the controller systtem has no way to detect motor temperature even if it was on fire.

Also it all looks ancient, knackered, worn out and hasnt been made for years. If you plan on continuing to use that chair I suggest a total rebuild. Including a modern control system. Or at least a total rebuild. Including a modern control system. rebuild. Including a modern control system. and very thorough test and clean of all components. Same with motors. Could be a worn brush, could be a bad connection, anywhere on the battery, motors, bus cable, brake or the microswitch could be faulty on the freewheel system. Why? Because your life literally DEPENDS on reliability. Death from exposure sat in a chair is a very real possibility or at least serious frostbite in a short time.

If its 0C I stay home. If its -16C stay mome with a fire lit. Heating on. Heat pump running. I think you must be mad!

Sometimes when the lights were flashing suddenly all lights got closed for no apparent reason me touching nothing.

Which sort of points to a intermittent connection or high resistance or oxidation in some connector somewhere or in the breaker, or the motor brushes worn, or some connection or microswitch. Check them all with a multimeter, replace brushes or motors, replace microswitches, check all connections and clean and replug with switchcleaner, replace breaker.

But if it were me I would rebuild it as new mechanically and electrically from scratch. Nothing else would give me any sense of safety.

For one thing, batteries do not work at those temperatures. They are a chemical reaction. That means battery performance like all chemical reactions is proportional to temperature. People are chemical reactions too... Cool yourself from your 37 degrees C and you dont function either.

HI i here -16 is not the coldest it can get to -30 celsius. the nest 2 months will be like this. Last year and the year before it had no problem enduring this weather . And I have new gel batteries. It is the circumbstances i live in . C ant change that.

Even though quicky 646 se is an old model i bought it almost new 3 years ago from a old person that never really used it so I am not thinking of replacing it. I dont have the finance to do that anyway.

A total rebuild. Including a modern control system. seems excessive . it is probably only one problem to be solved and i have to find it. Before that chair i had the same model and it lasted long and worked well in winter too.

I think i remember there is a kind of motor overheat protection on that chair. But i dont know the way the chair signals it .
I can assure you that even in very cold the motor can become very hot melting snow i put on it .


It is a diagnostic problem. Iguess the first thing to find out is how the chair let us know it overheats. if the signal on the joystick is the same. Not easy to find this answer.

I will try to put more pressure on the battery screws in case it was just a loose not avoiding contact. But i doubt it since i placed them like 1 or 2 months ago and put them tight.

if it was a worn brush wouldnt the chair have pulled on on side more than the other or woud have made noise? those are the signs i learned to recongnise but it was not happening .

[Burgerman]

A total rebuild. Including a modern control system. seems excessive . it is probably only one problem to be solved and i have to find it. Before that chair i had the same model and it lasted long and worked well in winter too.

So far. The next problem might allow you to die in -30... I dont hink its excessive judjing by your pictures.

I think i remember there is a kind of motor overheat protection on that chair. But i dont know the way the chair signals it .
I can assure you that even in very cold the motor can become very hot melting snow i put on it .

Theres is NO WAY for the motor to "signal" the control system. It only has 4 wires. Two for motor power. Two thin ones for brake solenoid. The CONTROLLER at least the power module can do thermal rollback, but that doesent stop you or give that error. Especially in minus 30... It needs to be reaching 55 degrees C and it simply reduces maximum power. It isnt normally bothering anyone other than in summer and bot when rolling at speed but when under heavy load. Such as when stalled. If you are driving through thick snow in summer then that might happen!

It is a diagnostic problem. Iguess the first thing to find out is how the chair let us know it overheats.

The ONLY thing that is affected by heat is the Power Module. That simply reduces (rolls back) power so the chair responds in a sluggish way. Some control system bring on an overheat light. But the chair doesent do what yours is doing.

I will try to put more pressure on the battery screws in case it was just a loose not avoiding contact. But i doubt it since i placed them like 1 or 2 months ago and put them tight.

Theres at least 3 wiring connection points.

if it was a worn brush wouldnt the chair have pulled on on side more than the other or woud have made noise? those are the signs i learned to recongnise but it was not happening .

Not nessassarily.

[Burgerman]

A total rebuild. Including a modern control system. seems excessive . it is probably only one problem to be solved and i have to find it. Before that chair i had the same model and it lasted long and worked well in winter too.

So far. The next problem might allow you to die in -30... I dont hink its excessive judjing by your pictures.

I think i remember there is a kind of motor overheat protection on that chair. But i dont know the way the chair signals it .
I can assure you that even in very cold the motor can become very hot melting snow i put on it .

Theres is NO WAY for the motor to "signal" the control system. It only has 4 wires. Two for motor power. Two thin ones for brake solenoid. The CONTROLLER at least the power module can do thermal rollback, but that doesent stop you or give that error. Especially in minus 30... It needs to be reaching 55 degrees C and it simply reduces maximum power. It isnt normally bothering anyone other than in summer and bot when rolling at speed but when under heavy load. Such as when stalled. If you are driving through thick snow in summer then that might happen!

It is a diagnostic problem. Iguess the first thing to find out is how the chair let us know it overheats.

The ONLY thing that is affected by heat is the Power Module. That simply reduces (rolls back) power so the chair responds in a sluggish way. Some control system bring on an overheat light. But the chair doesent do what yours is doing.

I will try to put more pressure on the battery screws in case it was just a loose not avoiding contact. But i doubt it since i placed them like 1 or 2 months ago and put them tight.

Theres at least 3 wiring connection points.

if it was a worn brush wouldnt the chair have pulled on on side more than the other or woud have made noise? those are the signs i learned to recongnise but it was not happening .

Not nessassarily.

[martin007]

I don't know where the problem is.
l cold affects the performance of the batteries.
At -16º the electronics may fail.

[yeshelp]

This morning after spending the night in warm, the controller was still doing it .
I think it turned back to normal but when i moved the joystick it started happen again. I cant reproduce it . I might be a wire or connection problem close to the joystick or in the joystic,

Is there i way (idont have a second joystick) to test if the problem comes from the joystick or wire coonected to it with a multimeter for example? I am ready to open the joystick but before doing so if i can confirm it is the problem it would be nice. i could also open the protective wire .

By the way the opening where we see red wire have been like that for a while it did not suddenly all open .

[yeshelp]

I don't know where the problem is.
l cold affects the performance of the batteries.
At -16º the electronics may fail.

Hi Ihave used it during 3 winters at colder temperature so i dont know. and now it is inside and does the same problem.

[Burgerman]

Old damaged wiring, old motors control system from the arc, may fail at any temperature. The problem is that at -16 to 30C you can die.


I cant walk or stand, suffer sores, ileostomy issues etc so chair failing at any point isnt an option. So every 18 months of use they get rebuilt as new or replaced.

Loom, checked over, replaced as needed. Batteries if lead, replaced. Motors replaced. Fuses swapped for bigger ones... EVERYTHING stripped and examined, cleaned, repainted, new bolts, greased, loctited, tyres replaced, bearings replaced, anything showing any dirt or wear cleaned, lubricated, or replaced. Result is old chair now better than a new one and looks brand new.
More importantli I KNOW exactly how it goes together and I know its done RIGHT.

I frequently find that manufacturers CRIMP connectors and they dont do it well. They have been found so corroded and green that they are not making a reliable connection. This oxidation happens over time and epecially if you roll on salt treated roads and footpaths. I have seen them literally fall out! This is why I rplace looms, or replace with my own or solder them.

Breakers are notoriously problematic. They are just a bimetalic strip with a set of contacts. That - you guessed it - corrode! They also burn and get high resistance. That causes them to heat up and then trip for no good reason. I throw those away and fit a branded midi 150A fuse. Likewise microswitches cause an error that stops the chair. They are on the freewheel mechanism. They too corrode and if you break one open are full of rust... I strip, examine, and replace all such parts frequently. In 27 years I have never once been stranded away from home other than when a battery failed internally when a cell joining weld failed. Even then, I had a way to get home.

[martin007]

What joystick is it?
Manufacturer and model.

[Burgerman]

Made by PG Drives - branded differently in place of the pilot+ stuff we got in europe. Around 1840...
Qtronix Has valves and stuff...

[martin007]

A cable without a sheath is a bad sign...

[LROBBINS]

"Valve" (British) = "Vacuum tube" (American)

[yeshelp]

What joystick is it?
Manufacturer and model.

Hi this is the picture of my joystick. you can also see the flashing video i placed on a hosting site in my opening

[yeshelp]

Old damaged wiring, old motors control system from the arc, may fail at any temperature. The problem is that at -16 to 30C you can die.


I cant walk or stand, suffer sores, ileostomy issues etc so chair failing at any point isnt an option. So every 18 months of use they get rebuilt as new or replaced.

Loom, checked over, replaced as needed. Batteries if lead, replaced. Motors replaced. Fuses swapped for bigger ones... EVERYTHING stripped and examined, cleaned, repainted, new bolts, greased, loctited, tyres replaced, bearings replaced, anything showing any dirt or wear cleaned, lubricated, or replaced. Result is old chair now better than a new one and looks brand new.
More importantli I KNOW exactly how it goes together and I know its done RIGHT.

I frequently find that manufacturers CRIMP connectors and they dont do it well. They have been found so corroded and green that they are not making a reliable connection. This oxidation happens over time and epecially if you roll on salt treated roads and footpaths. I have seen them literally fall out! This is why I rplace looms, or replace with my own or solder them.

Breakers are notoriously problematic. They are just a bimetalic strip with a set of contacts. That - you guessed it - corrode! They also burn and get high resistance. That causes them to heat up and then trip for no good reason. I throw those away and fit a branded midi 150A fuse. Likewise microswitches cause an error that stops the chair. They are on the freewheel mechanism. They too corrode and if you break one open are full of rust... I strip, examine, and replace all such parts frequently. In 27 years I have never once been stranded away from home other than when a battery failed internally when a cell joining weld failed. Even then, I had a way to get home.

HI Burgerman it is true that what you do is probably the best practice .I am impressed by you and your knowledge and willingness to help. I also understand that you went throug difficult scenarios as you once wrote and that your physical condition is difficult unfortunately.
With your enginer background and knowledge it is the good thing to do what you do I regarde it highly. I can use my legs a bit and know some basic repair but I am not as experienced in wheelchair as you are . It is ok for me to take some preventive mesures when i can and I have to solve problem as they appear. The chair itself fit my needs. Apart from changing tire, caster and once the joystick the chair is reliable enough without doing all that you do. And my budjet is limited. Once i had a fuse replace and twice brushes replaced for me .

I cant find a translation for loom. Since the question is still the most important thing atm: how can i test if the joystick is the problem? would a multimeter help me?

[yeshelp]

Ok i have removed a bit of protector wire and i have found the problem . a tiny blue wire is not attached anymore.

Is it possible to buy the 20 inch (from joystick to the quick attachement ) and just open the joystick and plug a new one ?
do you guys know what i mean by the 20 inches cable between the joystick and the connector with redel written on it?

are those 20 inches cable replacable or they are directly soldered to electronic components without a place to plug a new wire?
that would be my prefered choice , since it would give me a new cable instead of going on with a patched cable.

or is my only choice to remove the 2.5 cm protector(the though thick one) closer to the joystick try to fing its corresponding blue wire and solder them together? there is not much space . or maybe i should open the joystick to have more wire to do the soldering?

also what is the name of the quick connector where it is written redel on picture in previous post?

[martin007]

Has that joystick been in the Ukraine war?


It's very likely that the cables are soldered.
A screw can become loose with vibrations...

[yeshelp]

if i open the joystick what are the consequences?
will it become non tight after?

will i have more space to solder the 2 blue cable or i should grind the thicker part close to the joystick and add a portion of wire?

your thoughts

[martin007]

You don't lose anything by opening the joystick.

[yeshelp]

hi sorry for quick posting.
There is evolution. i grinded a bit of protector and made naked the 2 blue wires. I reconnected the joystick to the chair and using my finger i forced them to touch and the joystick seemed to work normally ! good so now i m confident that it is probably the only problem to solve.

Those parts for replacement are expensive and often used.
Is there a alternative joystick i could plug into the redel connector that would work?

by changing the joystick do i need to change the computer of the chair? how far back would i have to change pieces if i decide to take that route?

THanks

[martin007]

All you have to do is replace the cables...

[Burgerman]

Loom = all the wires on the chair from the manufacturer.
Every
I would replace the lot. All of them. Every cable, connectr and wire on the chair. The ones in the joystick are soldered.
Redel connectors are either super expensive or impossible to find.
Non of those cables are used today. Very hard to find or replace.
The control system is too old for economic repair at least to do it in a reliable way.

Repaired joined wires are not reliable. Old pvc gets hard and loses flexibility and the copper does the same, in time and work harden and get brittle. Which is why your failed. So they fail with vibration.

[yeshelp]

All you have to do is replace the cables...

Hum I dont think you can just replace the cable.
have you tried it with this model?
there is not female socket to accept a cable on the joystick.

I found an old joystick similar to the one that just broke and i opened it and the wires go connect with the electical circuits. it is like if the cable and one end redel and the other side goes throug the joystick via a round window to attach on electronic motherboard.

[Burgerman]

Correct. IF I had a GOOD new? Cable I would fit it. Soldering iron.

[martin007]

It's always possible to extend existing cables...
It's cheap and easy to make.

Do you have a soldering iron and tin at home?

[martin007]

I think there is nothing to lose.

[yeshelp]

I do have one . but have little experience with soldering.

Just to be sure did you see that there is just like 2 cm between the joystick window and the broken wire? Is that really enough?

[Burgerman]

Replace the cable... From the other joystick...

[ex-Gooserider]

The Qtronix joystick is 100% interchangeable with ANY Pilot+ joystick, and any Pilot+ part will work in place of the Qtronix part, they are the same functionally, all they are is a slightly different housing and labeling... They are 100% just 'rebrands' of the Pilot+ parts...

It has been a few years since I looked, but it used to be possible to get used Pilot+ stuff on eBay for short money, and it's worth getting a few sets to have spares... Possibly the hardest thing to get are those Redel cables, as they are somewhat fragile and hard to come by... I have never done it, but I might be tempted to hack in my own pick of connectors that simply replicate the existing cables if I couldn't get the Redel cable. As BM said, those cables and connectors are the hardest parts to come by as they aren't available from the electronics houses, and P&G no longer makes or supports Pilot+

You will need to have the programming cable (instructions on how to make it can be found elsewhere on the forum, and we can also get you the needed software - ask...) and verify the programming settings (especially brake voltages and motor compensation) on any new power module....

(He may not want to admit it now, but BM used to LIKE Pilot+ back before he discovered R-net... I still use it on my current chair, though I may switch to R-net on my project chair)

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

(He may not want to admit it now, but BM used to LIKE Pilot+ back before he discovered R-net... I still use it on my current chair, though I may switch to R-net on my project chair)

At one time, 27 years ago it was really the only good game in town. But its 2025. Those things are now hard to find in decent condition, no longer manufactured for many years, are usually 80A (there are a few that are 100 like rocking horse excrement) or less. And so in todays world, its probably cheaper to just swap for R-Net and an LED joystick and have a newer better more modern and more powerful system with more choice, more power, etc. And motors/battery loom should just plug in. All except for the programming dongle... But at some point you have to get one of those for modern chairs anyway.

So I dont see trying to patch up an old defunct system makes any sense now.