Invacare Storm 4 Xplore

[stevelawiw]

I Know you (Burgerman) owned one of these in GB (Gearless Brushless) spec a while back and you must have written about your experiences with it on here, but I can't find any posts about it - could you please provide the link(s)?

I remember it didn't have enough torque for you and you sent it back, but I'd like to know your findings on other stuff like how far back it's possible to put the seat and how you got on with the center footplate and if you had to specify a particular joystick to use the Wizard software to reprogram it etc.

I did find some of your pictures of it here in the thread https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6401

[Burgerman]

Its not so much that it didnt have enough torque. It did. However...

Stock configuration.
I got in it. I tried to navigate my room. I got from my bed to my PC about 3 tight turns. And it then refused to turn in place completely for around 15 mins. After that, it moved again for another 10 mins, then stopped working completely all over again. Rinse and repeat. IF I could get it out of the house it was fine in the street, into town, etc it just ***cannot*** turn in place.

On one occasion in the street at the corner where there was a ramp, it went up it once perfectly. Then 1 minute later I tried again, shut down for 15 minutes unable to move at all.

It was unusable. I thought there was a problem with the power module. So I got it replaced FOC by invacere. Same problem. If I programmed it in a way that made it actually turn WHEN TOLD it was even worse!

So I took my multimeter and clamp meter to it.

To turn in place without a user (empty) took 192 battery Amps. Thats crazy. Same thing in a conventional chair is less than 20. With my ExGf sat in it it refused to turn. She was 7.5 stone... 5 foot 2. It turned twice, then refused. And shut down for 20 mins.

The battery cannot support that. The controller shut down after 3 attempted turns in place due to some settings designed to prevent battery cable and battery damage. And fires. It limits battery current based on time. After 5 mins trying to navigae my room, the botors were so hot you couldnt holfd the wheel. The controller was almost as ht. The battery was also warm and 50% discharged (brand new MK gel 74Ah).

So I called invacare and had a discussion with the chief engineer that understood the brushless motor design. And he was amazed that I had found this problem. Amazed that I correctly diagnosed the issue, and admitted that this was indeed the problem. I explained that to do this level of torque on a 192kg chair without gear reduction (torque amplification) took around 12x as much current. They refunded the chair after this discussion. And took it back. Soon after, they scrapped the brushless motors. And that chair now has 4 pole motors. He alredy knew about this. It took them many years to figure it out.

Foortest and seat relocaton required a little surgery, and then no problem. But the chair did not work!!!

[Burgerman]

I might add, super efficient, low current rolling at any speed. Should give hue range long distance.
Super imposssibly inefficient at stall. And at times of high torque with crazy battery currents needed.

[stevelawiw]

Thanks for the replies.

Foortest and seat relocaton required a little surgery, and then no problem.

So you had to drill some new holes?

Also did you have to specify the joystick or are all Dynamic joysticks still compatible with Wizard V5 software?

[Burgerman]

They all use that new fangled linx one that we cant program now. The older ones all used the the same old v5 programmer.

[Dan]

I bought a Storm 4 Xplore around the same time as Burgerman but my experience has been the opposite. The old saying goes one mans perfect chair is another mans nightmare.

One thing I will stress is that this is an outdoor wheelchair, its ok inside but much better on city streets. Probably the farthest I have gone in the chair on one charge was 17 miles, at 8MPH, after that I installed a 30Ah add on pack. I often take the chair overnight running around a city and staying in a hotel on one charge but with the pack.

I have never experienced controller shut down like Burgerman did but the odd time the joystick will stop responding just after you slow down to stop. All you have to do is turn it off and back on again, three seconds and its back to normal. I have to say that I can't even remember the last time that happened to me.

I have never found a ramp that the chair would not go up, the local train station have a very long, steep ramp, that goes up to the platforms, the chair flys up it.

The only time I have noticed controller roll back is when maybe jammed up against a wall, but that only lasts about five seconds. Its just down to poor driving. I have never noticed the motors heat up either.

I prefer the normal leg hangers over the center leg rest. I bought my chair fully loaded for just under eight grand. 17 wide by 19 inch seat back as far as it will go. The armrests don't stick out past the wheels.

One thing that I have noticed that will make the chair turn on the spot easier is over inflating the caster wheels to about 43psi. I put the back ones about the same. The Xplore has great suspension.

[Burgerman]

I have never found a ramp that the chair would not go up, the local train station have a very long, steep ramp, that goes up to the platforms, the chair flys up it.

Same. Because you are already rolling. And because you are not loading it up any.
If you do it flat out refuses to move and shuts down.

The only time I have noticed controller roll back is when maybe jammed up against a wall, but that only lasts about five seconds. Its just down to poor driving. I have never noticed the motors heat up either.

Because I cannot abide the hovercraft steering, I load the motors harder. Because I want them to do what I want. Thats the same as you hitting a wall. Load. Its cuts out. Do that indoors by turning left/right with high turn acceleration settings so it turns when its told and it does the same as your wall..

I prefer the normal leg hangers over the center leg rest.

That makes it super nose heavy and drive horribly.
Because you must be able to move the heels of your feet between the casters. Yours have to sit in front of them even when reversed. So you cannot move the seat back far enough. So its overloaded on the front.

One thing that I have noticed that will make the chair turn on the spot easier is over inflating the caster wheels to about 43psi. I put the back ones about the same. The Xplore has great suspension.

Thats because the chair is massively overloaded at the front and it doesent have adequate torque to overcome the tyres at a more normal pressure. So you have to over inflate them to make that feeling disapear. When programmed CORRECTLY there should be no feeling of delay, or hesitation, it should just follow the stick as if it had no front casters or the thing isnt programmed correctly or is too nose heavy. I cannot use a chair that way. Its OK outside, but indoor manoevrability is then terrible. And the chair feels way too long as well.

In the ENGINEERING programmer, they have reduced the "turn acceleration scaler" so that a normal mortal without access to that programmer cannot ever set the turn acceleration high enough by a large margin. Why did they do that? Because if you program it to steer properly it CUTS OUT! They did it to try and disguise the problem as best they can. Theres no way on earth I can live with a chair that is programmed how yours is! Your mileage may vary! Depends what you are used to and what you expect. I like accuracy, and linear control. Unless you adjust that scalar then you cant turn up turn acceleration high enough to get that.

[stevelawiw]

They all use that new fangled linx one that we cant program now. The older ones all used the the same old v5 programmer.

So how did you reprogram yours? And I thought Linx was incompatible with the GB motors?

[Burgerman]

It is. Mine used a DYNAMIC DX2 system. It had a 120A brushless DX controller.

As I keep saying, I would never buy any chair that I didnt already have a OEM or better programmer for.

After mine was returned, the guy I was talking to that was big on brushless said he understood this issue well. Having had to deal with its consequences repeatedly. He was the one that told me that they were going to fit 4 pole brushed motors from now on. Still programable with the same programmer at that time. But now all use Linx.

[stevelawiw]

Hey Dan, have you been able to reprogram yours? Could you let me know the model no. of the joystick plz.

My experience with the GB setup pretty much tallies with yours. I've been using my GB chair for over 10 years now but it's a bit like Triggers broom from Only Fools and Horses!

[foghornleghorn]

If you have an Invacare Storm 4 Xplore with the brushless motors and this DX2-REM550 joystick it can be programmed with the hacked Wizard 5 software and a homemade lead.

[Burgerman]

And a DWIZ orange thingy...

And if you want it to steer rather than drive around at random with a mind of its own, you will need to change that turn acceleration scalar mentioned earlier. So you need that!

I have one somewhere and a cable...
And no chair to program with it.

[foghornleghorn]

And a DWIZ orange thingy...

Not needed.

Hacked Wizard + a lead Woody made for me is enough.

[Burgerman]

Maybe but we no longer have a woodygb.

Look at the crazy prices!
https://www.warmex.net/en/dx-software-p ... ncl-dongle

[Dan]

Hare is the link to some programming info. I use reprogrammed profile 4, my original settings on profile 5 are a joke. I have a couple of the DX2-REM550 joysticks but I prefer to use the smaller DX-REMG90A. If I remember correctly the programming is held in the joystick.
Its not the most nimble of chairs at very slow speeds but you can learn how best to control it. I often push chairs out of the way in cafés and so on.

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7936&p=119789&hilit=storm#p119789

I've been using my GB chair for over 10 years now but it's a bit like Triggers broom from Only Fools and Horses!

You say that you have replaced many parts on your chair? I have done thousands of miles and only replaced the tyres. I got mine in 2017, its only been used outside, shops and hotels.

[Burgerman]

You should read that thread carefully!!!
That turn acceleration scalar thing is essential or you are literally sailing a boat.