PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

[expresso]

Bull shit … … all those blown fuse / 12V run .

It's your 20A charger , which never did the charge complete . The current is too big for G24 gel batt .

no its not the charger -- i have used it that charger myself - never had a issue - - i have no idea about the blown fuses etc, - thats what the repair supervisor told me today - and it made me think - if thats possiable -

it sounded like it could be - but if everyone is saying it cant be - then its most likely not the reason and he just said what ever - he told me that and told my friend it was just bad batteries - which i dont believe either

how many sets of bad batteries can someone get ?

just a quick recap - once her new vendor took her chair in to check it out and it was returned back - it did work fine - something was done - that solved the issue - for some reason no one can explain what was done that did it - tech dosnt remember - supervisor said it was the fuse - so who knows -

after that it worked fine - then it was taken again to replace batteries - and when she got it back - it was back to draining fast again - - now they changed the batteries today again - and charging up now -

she will know in a day or two for sure if its holding the charge or not -

The charger did not cause it - - if anything it may have caused a rush of in current when turned on maybe ? which may have blown a fuse or not or something else - who knows - no one seems to know - everyone is just guessing it seems


20A is not too much for a MK Gel 24 battery - i even confirmed that with MK themselves - i actually charge my MK Gel 24 at 25A with the PL 8 - no problems

[expresso]

two 12V batteries in series -- they both have one fuse for each battery - - depending how they have the wiring harness wired up - its very possible one fuse blown making one battery unusable - but the other one may be able to pass the juice

i dont know if thats the case - if that can work in a fashion that way - but drain the battery fast - Shirley you have the same chair - invacare with the GB motors also - do you have a programmer for your chair - you can check what the controller is set at for low Volt cut off maybe -

if thats set to 10V - then a 12V battery would power it ? not good but would work for short time -

i am just guessing what would make sense to me - since its clear no one seems to know - and they are the experts -

[LROBBINS]

The two batteries are in series and opening a series circuit at any point breaks the entire circuit. A blown fuse will not give 12V at the controller - it will give 0V. Separate fuses for each battery are usually used only when the batteries are in separate compartments because there's the possibility of a short in one compartment that wouldn't break a fuse placed between the two batteries. That tech is either stupid or a liar. If one fuse was blown, and it blows again, someone has to hunt down the short (which may be a high-resistance short so the fuse lasts a while before failing). Time to get out the trusty multimeter.

[Burgerman]

That tech is either stupid or a liar.

I am going with both. And he thinks you are stupid for telling you this...

[steves1977uk]

Most techs don't know their ar$e$ from their noses, and to think most of us have to rely on these people

Steve

[popschief]

I love this thread. Makes me grateful not having to depend on these jerks for anything. There have been reports they charge wheelchair services for a new set of batteries and install an old set in the users chair.


bp

[Burgerman]

Theres a thread here proving that somewhere.

[steves1977uk]

This one?... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6489

Steve

[expresso]

i just noticed this on new order form from sunrise - they offer this battery and the MK battery also - http://www.bwgllc.com/products/bwg-12750-group-24/


what do you think - any better or just the same as MK Gel or worse ?

[Burgerman]

5.5mOhm compared to 3.5 Worse... not as a gift if you program your chair to go.
450 cycles or less compared to 500+ Worse...

[expresso]

figured that - i just noticed it on the new 2017 order form -

[Burgerman]

OK, been looking for the best cells to fit in my new Xplore chair. It uses MK Grp24 battes, and is very tight on height. So these ones will allow 125Ah in the confined space taken by group 24 batts.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/SINOPOLY.pdf

And take up less space than 2 grp 24s...

So Where can I buy them! ??????????




170 tall (less than grp24 by 30mm)
255 long (5mm less)
40.5 wide (x4 = 162mm so 10mm less)

While allowing 125Ah but only 3C. Less important with 125Ah, and less important with brushless... And 3000 cycles to 80 DOD which will be at the 70 mile point!

[SteveO]

OK, been looking for the best cells to fit in my new Xplore chair. It uses MK Grp24 battes, and is very tight on height. So these ones will allow 125Ah in the confined space taken by group 24 batts.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/SINOPOLY.pdf

And take up less space than 2 grp 24s...

So Where can I buy them! ??????????




170 tall (less than grp24 by 30mm)
255 long (5mm less)
40.5 wide (x4 = 162mm so 10mm less)

While allowing 125Ah but only 3C. Less important with 125Ah, and less important with brushless... And 3000 cycles to 80 DOD which will be at the 70 mile point!

This guy is selling some stuff on a forum but does seem to have his own website, might be worth a quick email?

https://speakev.com/threads/indra-co-uk ... etc.10501/

[Burgerman]

I realize that the hurry to make the pub made me post in the wrong forum!
And that guy only has the common ones. Those are easy to get.

ill post in the right place tomorrow. Maybe Shirley knows? If so post in the lithium thread!

[Wheel-less]

Total Tech Idiot here! This forum reads like a foreign language to me!

I NEARLY did something almost right. Replacing the batteries in my (Granny) Sirocco, I got MK. (Hurrah!) But I got the lead and not the gel (Boo!)

NEXT time I will get the GEL!

Would some (extremely) patient person explain to me - as to a 3-year-old - whether I can use an 8amp charger for my 55ah batteries? In my search for an answer, I have been told both yes and no. Any inexpensive recommendations for charger brand? I need a replacement of the "floater" type as my chair lives on the charger 24-7 when not in actual use.

Though I may not understand the language, I do know that if I want a reliable answer, this is the place to get it.

OLD GRANNY (literally) SIROCCO OWNER

[woodygb]

ALL std batteries have lead in them.

The term WET ,GEL or AGM comes from the medium that the lead is suspended in.

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/article ... asics.html

NOTE:- That each battery type requires a specific charging voltage and time to get the most life from it....most mobility chargers use a one voltage fits all types and thus does non very well.

whether I can use an 8amp charger for my 55ah batteries?

Yes.

[woodygb]

3. Wet Cell (flooded), Gel Cell, and Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) are various versions of the lead acid battery. The Wet cell comes in two styles; Serviceable and Maintenance free. Both are filled with electrolyte and are basically the same. I prefer one that I can add water to and check the specific gravity of the electrolyte with a hydrometer. The Gel Cell and the AGM batteries are specialty batteries that typically cost twice as much as a premium wet cell. However they store very well and do not tend to sulfate or degrade as easily as wet cell. There is little chance of a hydrogen gas explosion or corrosion when using these batteries; these are the safest lead acid batteries you can use. Gel Cell and some AGM batteries may require a special charging rate. If you want the best,most versatile type, consideration should be given to the AGM battery for applications such as Marine, RV, Solar, Audio, Power Sports and Stand-By Power just to name a few. If you don't use or operate your equipment daily, AGM batteries will hold their charge better than other types. If you must depend on top-notch battery performance, spend the extra money. Gel Cell batteries still are being sold but AGM batteries are replacing them in most applications. There is a some common confusion regarding AGM batteries because different manufactures call them by different names; some of the more common names are "sealed regulated valve", "dry cell", "non spillable", and "Valve Regulated Lead Acid" batteries. In most cases AGM batteries will give greater life span and greater cycle life than a wet cell battery.
SPECIAL NOTE about Gel Batteries: It is very common for individuals to use the term GEL CELL when referring to sealed, maintenance free batteries, much like one would use Kleenex when referring to facial tissue or "Xerox machine" when referring to a copy machine. Be very careful when specifying a gel cell battery charger, many times we are told by customer they are requiring a charger for a Gel Cell battery and in fact the battery is not a Gel Cell.

Scorpion BatteryAGM: The Absorbed Glass Matt construction allows the electrolyte to be suspended in close proximity with the plates active material. In theory, this enhances both the discharge and recharge efficiency. Common manufacturer applications include high performance engine starting, power sports, deep cycle, solar and storage battery. The larger AGM batteries we sell are typically good deep cycle batteries and they deliver their best life performance if recharged before allowed to drop below the 50% discharge rate. The Scorpion motorcycle batteries we carry are a nice upgrade from your stock flooded battery, and the Odyssey branded batteries are fantastic for holding their static charge over long periods of non use. When Deep Cycle AGM batteries are discharged to a rate of no less than 60% the cycle life will be 300 plus cycles.

GEL: The Gel Cell is similar to the AGM style because the electrolyte is suspended, but different because technically the AGM battery is still considered to be a wet cell. The electrolyte in a Gel Cell has a silica additive that causes it to set up or stiffen. The recharge voltage on this type of cell is lower than the other styles of lead acid battery. This is probably the most sensitive cell in terms of adverse reactions to over-voltage charging. Gel Batteries are best used in VERY DEEP cycle application and may last a bit longer in hot weather applications. If the incorrect battery charger is used on a Gel Cell battery poor performance and premature failure is certain.

[Burgerman]

For CYCLIC use, 12 or 24V Odyssey (set in Advanced>Detection tab) PC1500 profile with the following parameters:

CHARGE AMPS CC STAGE: 30 (Higher or lower also OK depending on circumstances set in Advanced>Charge tab)
CHARGE VOLTAGE CV: 14.70 (@20 Centigrade, reduce Voltage if battery warmer)*
CV CURRENT TERMINATION POINT: 1/500th battery capacity (140mA with 8 hour limit)**
FINISHING STAGE CONSTANT CURRENT: 250mA for 1 hour, Subject to voltage limit 2.60V per cell (15.6 or 31.2V) whichever occurs sooner.

* If its summer/hot day, and during use/charge BATTERY is often warmer than the 20C room, reduce voltage to 14.5 or 14.6V.

** With a healthy battery, and with cool weather, a 750thC or 1000thC termination point can be used in place of a fast finish CC finish stage.
But as a battery ages, and sometimes when brand new if its been stored a month or two and not in regular use, or if charged after only a few Ah have been used, it may never reach this low point. However there is an 8 hour CV limit set so its safe to try if you want. But the finishing stage achieves the same thing. Faster. Here we are only adding 1/4 of an Amp (250mA) for 1 hour after a low 500thC termination, (This is the small additional charge required to prevent premature sulfation instead of trying to go to 1000thC. The voltage will rise above the 14.7 point, but current is so low that the internal recombination system for gasses produced can easily cope. Dont use this profile with a cheap generic AGM or with a gel battery.

PROFILE FOR PL8 FOR ODYSSEY
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[Khreat]

Can anyone suggest a supplier who will currwntly sell supply vat free?
I just called tayna, who said if they fitted them, they could sell vat free, but otherwise no.

[wakarimasen]

This is a question about typical MK AGM battery life when properly maintained. I just replaced my pair of MK group 3 batteries that were at least two years old and seemed to be weaking as determined by more rapid discharging. I'm pretty hard on a chair as house is deeply carpeted and I spend most of my days in my cramped woodshop starting, stopping, turning and backing constantly (lots of "K" turns) along with riding over rough brick walkways that steer my chair more than I do. I figured the way I use it, two years was pretty good but I really have no idea.

Another point, if it means anything, with new batteries, the indicator shows no discharge at all at days end.

[Burgerman]

I can explain why to all of these comments, and literally write a huge book. But take it from me for now.

1. A battery gauge on any device that uses lead batteries is completely useless and at best is there to make the user feel secure, or tell him to stop. Thats ALL it can tell you.

2. Allowing your battery 3 days between charges is the fastest way to kill it possible. You get many thousands of shallow discharges. You get just a handful of complete discharges. And the closer the battery is kept to fully charged the better it likes it.

So charge AT LEAST every single night fully overnight or even longer if time allows, and if possible charge during the day as you eat or check mail too. This is to lower the daily average discharge level. Preferably with a much better/more powerful charger than the overnight stock one. Do this regularly and a battery will be good for 3 or 5 times as long!

[Gnomatic]

New set of East Penn Gels(MK, Deka) on the way. Found a supplier who'll take my insurance and actually supplies decent batteries.(for lead)

I'm going to install them in my backup chair as my main chair is in the shop for a bit of work.

BM, I already have a PL8 preset for 24v MK Gel from you. I want to charge these individually before I install. What should I change on your preset to charge one at a time? Or, if you don't mind, post another for a single new MK Gel.

Thank you

[Burgerman]

Maybe. Go to "advanced" (tick the box). Then detection tab. Then to cells. If its set to auto detect then it should be OK. But its better to set it to 12v or 24v (which means set 6S OR 12S rather than auto) for tech reasons, depending on what you are charging.

[Burgerman]

To charge a stock chair via normal charge port with the PL8v2 charger, and do so correctly with Odyssey batteries you can use this profile.

Its set to charge 50% FASTER at 12Amps CC. This is the max you can use on an XLR plug, but seems fine on several chairs I use it on.

Summary of main settings -- for XLR and Odyssey Batteries:
12 Amp CC stage 1.
29.40 Volt CV stage 2. Termination of CV at a very low 1000thC (70mA) with 8 hour time limit to protect against old or failed batteries never reaching this point.
Then a small CC stage 3, of 55mA for 2 hours to add a little extra to be sure no sulfates remain to give best service life. This has a 2.55V per cell (30.30V) ceiling that will also terminate charge.

If the battery has been used with other chargers, or is showing signs of losing range this profile may help. After 3 or 4 cycles range should get better. In extreme cases set this trickle 3rd stage from 2 hours to 8 or 16 and charge several times this way to try to restore it. The controlled overcharge at a low rate will return any non permanent sulfates back to the acid, safely without over-voltage/gassing etc.

This will give the best possible service life from an Odyssey PC1500 used daily in a chair and charged overnight via either the XLR or an Anderson type connector.

Can also be used with AGMs (SET VOLTAGE TO 28.80 or 2.40V per cell)
And with healthy gel (SET VOLTAGE TO 28.20V or 2.35V per cell) Dont do the extended stage 3 recovery on gel!

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[Fedor]

Hello there!
I'm trying to choose a new GEL battery. There is:

1. Sonnenschein GF 12 063 Y O
2. Sonnenschein GF 12 050 V

The first has a large capacity of 63 Ah (C5), but the number of cycles is 450 (according to IEC 60254-1).

The second is cheaper by $ 100, the capacity is 50 Ah (C5), BUT the number of cycles is 700.

Information from here: http://www2.exide.com/Media/files/Downl ... %20_en.pdf

I use the wheelchair very intensively, I discharge and charge every day. My previous battery with 450 cycles lived for 3 years and died.
Now it seems to me 700 cycles is preferable to plus 10% capacity, but I do not understand the reason for this difference in the number of cycles. Perhaps it is the internal resistance? I looked at all the datasheets, but could not find these values.

What do you think? Which battery will be better? I plan to use it in the future on LiFePO4 or Lithium–titanate, but while I choose from this.

I hope you will help.

[Burgerman]

You are basically exchanging capacity with cycle life. Likely because of thicker plates.

But the average depth of discharge is the main thing that determines this, and you will be be discharging the smaller one harder and deeper... So may not see more cycles. Or get less. Also you need to know impedance which is important since at high discharge rates you may not see the larger capacity, and if thair claimed cycle life is at the same 80%. Because some claim more cycles, and its because they measure it at 70%. I would fit a set of odyssey PC1500's and use a faster charger at 14.7V per battery. They claim 400 cycles, but unlike gels have lower resistance and charge faster so you are more likely to see this so in realit they last as long. I didnt look at the link because I have guests... Or MK grp24 73Ah.

[Fedor]

Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately, it seems Sonnenschein publishes internal resistance and other important information not for all batteries. And this is not enough for a correct decision. I know about Odyssey and MK, but I live in Russia and they are very difficult to buy here. Not like good vodka, bears and balalaika.

[Burgerman]

Then go for the A500 dryfit one. As thats what many wheelchair manufacturers use.

Or just go lithium, all lead is crap!

Send me a bear.

[Burgerman]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... zt82lZ6FQA

Once bought a set of these.
1000 deep cycles.
100Ah at 20 hour rate.
5 year warranty!
Same size as the odyssey.

On the face of it they would be perfect! Win win. Reality was that when fully charged the chair struggled and had low performance. When you accelerated the voltage dropped badly. So the chair didnt respond reliably. After around half the normal expected range, the chair stopped completely. Battery gauge reads full. Because they were too high impedance. Wonder why they no longer make them. Cheap too at under half the price of gel.

I have gear to measure Ah. Tested at 20 hour rate they were 100Ah. But we often demand 200A from batteries when ramp/turn/climbing. Thats the 30 min rate... Or 40x harder discharge than their rated 100Ah, or 2C. Or 10x harder than the 5 hour rate.

IR or impedance matters. These have 350 Cranking Amps. Compared to 3x this, from an Odyssey. Thats the clue when impedance isnt given.

[SWalkusz]

CHARGING!

- Charge EVERY NIGHT that you used the chair at all, and all night long. Leave on charge as long as possible before you get up or use the chair each day. On many chargers the GREEN ready light does not mean its actually completed the charge and it will still actually be charging. It actually takes 10 to 16 hours to charge your chairs batteries, regardless of the "ready light". And charge once per week even if you HAVE NOT USED THE POWERCHAIR!

- If you want batteries to last longer, always do the above, but also PLUG IN AND CHARGE REGULARLY, during the day as you check email, eat etc. This is called opportunistic charging, and it lessens the average depth of discharge. Batteries do not like being discharged, so the less you deplete them generally, the longer they will last! So add 'some' power, whenever you get the chance. If you should hear otherwise on other ill informed sites, leave and don't go back. The info here is correct!

These following details will help. But if this extra info is beyond you don't worry.

- GEL batteries should be charged at 14.1v at a typical room temperature. Less is ok (but terminally slower!) but more is harmful. A couple of tenths of a volt more will typically HALF the service life. So that's 28.20v MAX charge voltage for a gel charger. Sadly most mobility chargers charge at 14.40 volts, which means a slightly faster charge but shortened service life.

- Cheap AGM deep cycle generic batteries, (which are frankly rubbish) should be charged at 14.40v (28.80v) for best service life. Which happily is what almost all generic chargers charge at.

- OPTIMA, ODYSSEY, & other PURE LEAD batteries need between 14.4v and 14.7v for best service life in cyclic operation (as we use them). So again a generic charger is fine for these.

In all cases, they should be charged at these voltages until approx. 100C to 500C. This means that the charge should continue till the Amps fall to a very low level. Sadly most powerchair chargers stop charging too soon. They will then show us the ready light. They do so, however, partly so that we can get up! But do not actually stop charging in many cases. They only appear to do so. They actually drop to a "float" or maintenance level charge, (13.6v usually or 27.2v for 2 batteries) and are safe to leave connected for months to protect the batteries from discharge. And so your batteries are actually still charging (albeit more slowly) AFTER the green/ready light. So ignore the ready light, leave connected for a further few hours if at all possible in a morning! A cheap volt meter will let you see this stuff happening.

Does this stuff matter? Absolutely!
Your batteries will last much longer, that tiny extra bit of charge really matters!

As a battery discharges, its sulfuric acid turns to Lead Sulfate and Lead Dioxide, and this coats the plates. The Lead Sulfate is only completely returned to the acid by charging FULLY. If this never happens some Sulfate coating remains on the battery plates. This hardens over time and turns to larger crystals that do not conduct electricity. This is called permanent sulfation. It cannot be removed no matter what people will tell you. It doesn't conduct! And once bad enough the batteries are toast!

So again, batteries like to be charged. FULLY. And without exceeding the manufacturers Volt level! They do NOT LIKE being discharged, and they don't like being LEFT in a discharged state for periods of time. So after use FULLY recharge ASAP!!!

https://www.jonesboatchandlery.co.uk/sterling-battery-charger?gclid=CjwKCAjw_8jNBRB-EiwA96Yp1r7Qyy9FhGgiAWT6dAgSwToqNUCGSkBu7MfwFRG1ovkS0wmTTMxYPRoCWq4QAvD_BwE
The link above is for a bargain Pro Charge ultra 10A dual channel charger for £179. It can also be found for £174 delivered on eBay