Socialism...

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Re: Socialism...

Postby rustyjames » 13 Jul 2017, 20:53

@ Sully. You cited one instance, your other post made it sound like Trump is the worlds biggest deadbeat. And you don't have to school me on construction contracts, I was personally involved with quite large government building projects since I was a kid. I can tell you that a lot of subs try to deviate in the contract to makeup for the mistakes they made when the submitted their bid.

All I can say is that the a Trump organization probably has hundreds of projects (huge ones) going on at once during the course of a year. To expect the President :P to be personally involved in every project is beyond ridiculous. He has flunky' involved in the process, too.

And I get it, the democrat party is extremely bitter, the election was stolen from them. I watch it every night on the news, there's no journalism, only opinions, and I expect it to continue for the foreseeable future. I sincerely believe that you lib's would rather see the county detonate that the President make any headway. Sad!
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Re: Socialism...

Postby sacharlie » 13 Jul 2017, 22:27

rustyjames wrote:I sincerely believe that you lib's would rather see the county detonate that the President make any headway. Sad!


It's no surprise for a righteous republican to believe such. I see flaming liberals and righteous republicans in the same light. I do not believe you are a righteous republican like Sen. McConnell when he said the 1st priority of the Republican party is to see that Pre. Obama is a 1 term president; then proceeded to prevent any headway to improving the nation.
I believe you look to Trump for something beyond party politics, NO?
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jul 2017, 10:12

You can equally well say that some short term damage is well worth the cost to stop a socialist Obama destroying the country financially long term. And so is justified.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Sully » 14 Jul 2017, 18:44

Quote; "And I get it, the democrat party is extremely bitter, the election was stolen from them. I watch it every night on the news, there's no journalism, only opinions, and I expect it to continue for the foreseeable future. I sincerely believe that you lib's would rather see the county detonate that the President make any headway. Sad"!

And I get it, the democrat party is extremely bitter, the election was stolen from them. Stolen? No but it did prove now Pres. Trumps earlier point. I watch it every night on the news, there's no journalism, only opinions, You must watch Fox exclusively and I expect it to continue for the foreseeable future. Probably! Other citizens not me have the right to do pretty much legally as they wish

I am not bitter. I am also not going to go out sing and dance because this President was elected. I watch and listen to as many of this President's speeches as I can, I do not listen to the bull shit that any of the commentators have to say afterwards. I am still pretty proficient in the English language I do not require words being explained to me. This President is NOT ambiguous with his tweets or posted statements most of which he would do better keeping to himself .
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jul 2017, 20:34

I and most of the world it seems, find his speeches and all his conversations distinctively odd, confused/unfinished and never really say anything.

He seems to talk, but not say anything most of the time apart from "good guy", "enjoys being with him". All of which is irrelevant. Or whatever after a meeting with anyone important. Seems to have no actual grasp of anything. No direction. Goes from one thing to another. Backtracks. Seems to ramble and say nothing and do so with the same simple repeated words. Every time I listen, I am always left wanting. And baffled as to what he has said or means. Seriously like a 8 or 9 year old.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Sully » 15 Jul 2017, 16:05

Can you name me one 100% Capitalist nation according to your definition of 100% Capitalist? No internal national Taxation!

Rusty, I have always held people who claim bankruptcy in very low regard. I worked as a young man for many contractors who claimed bankruptcy. The would change some names on the company's charter, and the name of the company, then be right back bidding jobs and failing, again and again. I do understand that phenomenon. I understand non compliance to specifications, as well as poor workmanship. But what Now President Trump did in southern New Jersey was unconscionable.

Remember this " a liar is always a thief, and a thief is always a liar" Our President will tell a lie when the truth would suite him better. "HE" has proven this himself, with his tweets as well as his spoken word.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2017, 16:14

Can you name me one 100% Capitalist nation according to your definition of 100% Capitalist? No internal national Taxation!


Of course not. I said all along, that you need a capitalist ECONOMY with as little taxation (esp extra taxes for business and high earners) as possible and low wage or worker legislation and as little regulation as possible. Because to do the opposite makes even the poor poorer long term. We don't want a socialist economy!!!

And I said all along that we need social care (socialist safety net only) for the sick, injured, temporarily out of work, and to cover infrastructure, schools, streets, military, fire, police etc. ONLY. With a conservative control or it will all get wildly out of hand as always and become unaffordable. And without a free CAPITALIST ECONOMY you cannot afford any of this.

This:

You seem to view capitalism and socialism at odds to each other. Kinda of a north and south opposing forces.


Left me in awe of the sheer ignorance sacharlie has of any of this stuff. Its ABSOLUTELY at odds! By definition these are POLAR OPPOSITE extremes. What has he been talking about all this time?
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Re: Socialism...

Postby popschief » 15 Jul 2017, 17:59

The president's Tweets may not be the best way to judge his accomplishments since Twitter limits the length of the entries. Here is a more thorough list of his first 6 months in office.
bp

ON TRADE

1) KILLED TPP
2) $350+ billion deal with Saudi Arabia ($110 billion in arms $250 billion in trade/investment) creating 100,000’s of jobs in both countries, historic.
3) Pulled out of PARIS ACCORD
4) Had a major victory on sugar exports from Mexico. Made Mexico drop the exports % and the amount of refined sugar. Will help our sugar industry and the US sugar mills that produce refined sugar from raw sugar.
5) Notified Congress of NAFTA renegotiation on May 18th. Talks can start 90 days later on Aug 16th, 2017
6) China Trade deal opening up beef and LNG gas as well as giving a way to get 1 billion Chinese credit scores so the USA can offer them credit. Trade deal was done in record time.
7) Sec Ross has slapped more than $2 billion in fines on China and Canada for illegal trade practices.
8) the U.S. Department of Agriculture has reached agreement with Chinese officials on final details of a protocol to allow the U.S. to begin the beef exports to China (6/12/17). The first beef has been imported to China (06/30/17 and Sec Perdue cut and ate a USDA prime rib in China)
9) REOPENING KORUS trade deal per Sarah Sanders press briefing on 06/30/17)


On Economy
1) Unemployment rate 4.3% U3 and 8.4% U6
2) Proposed a $1 Trillion infrastructure project
3) Stock Market at Historic Highs (as of 6/11/17 Dow up 16% NASDAQ up 19.5% since election day)
4) US homes prices climb at fastest pace In 3 years per CNBC.
5) Jobless claims hit 28 year low in Apr
6) OPEC broken can no longer set prices due to USA energy production unleashed
7) Secured $50 billion investment from Japan
8) Secured $20 billion investment from Exxon in Gulf coast
9) Gasoline at $1.95/gallon in Central NC (lowest price at this time of year since 2005 for entire US 06/30/17)
10) Repealed 14 Obama regulations via CRA saving $ billions in costs to the economy
11) Atlanta Fed sees 3.6% growth in 2nd qrt
12) Federal debt is 130,455,438,424.64 billion LOWER since Dec 30th 2016 (as of 06/24/17) per treasurydirect.gov
13) Federal surplus was $182 billion at end of Apr (unexpected)
14) Consumer and business confidence at record highs
15) North Dakota experiencing a boom since Dakota access pipeline finished (500,000 Barrels now flowing through pipeline per day)
16) Keystone pipeline construction ongoing
17) Mining, steel and oil/gas jobs booming
18) Mines reopening
19) 600,000+ JOBS created since Jan1st (per BLS) 800,000+ per ADP
20) Directed Dep’t of Commerce to streamline Federal permitting processes for domestic manufacturing
21) Launched United States-Canada Council for Advancement of Women Entrepreneurs and Business Leaders with Canadian PM Justin Trudeau
22) Cut 1.6 billion costs from Air Force one and F-35 airplanes.
23) Regulatory freeze on all federal governmental agencies
24) Making agencies cut 2 regulations for each new one.
25) Saw the opening of the first NEW COAL MINE IN PA in YEARS creating 70 jobs at the mine and more than 400+ supporting jobs in the community. (06/10/17) Per foxnews.
26) Coal for Central Appalachian coal has increased 8.95% this year. Increasing the economy for SE OH, SW PA, VA, MD and WVA
27) Maine unemployment at 32 year low. The State dept of unemployment forced to layoff people because of lack of claims
28) Food Stamp spending is down almost $1 billion per month and $12 billion per year per USAD
29) Black unemployment at a 17 year low in May at 7.5% per Bureau of Labor Statistics. (06/24/17)
30) Coal mining rose 19% in USA for first 5 months per US energy Department
31) 1st qrt GDP revised up to 1.4%
32) USA now pumping 500k more barrels of oil per day since Dec 31st. Now at 9.3 million bpd. 3rd in the world only 1.2 million bdp behind Russia and Saudi Arabia
33) USA is the world leader in natural gas production
34) Institute for Supply Management says its manufacturing index rose to 57.8 last month from 54.9 in May. Anything above 50 signals that factory activity is increasing (07/03/17)
35) 15 of 18 manufacturing industries posted growth in JUNE per ISM (07/03/17)
36) The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) statistics for fiscal year (FY) 2017 show that food stamp enrollment decreased nationwide by 2.9 percent over the past year (07/05/17)

On Immigration
1) Authorized DHS to hire 10,000 ICE officers & 5,000 border patrol agents
2) Secured funding for more immigration judges for deportation cases in 2017 budget
3) Ended "catch and release” policy
4) ICE arrests up 40% as of May
5) ICE arrests are 75% criminal illegals as of May
6) Ice Arrests for non-criminal illegals up 150% as of May due to sanctuary cities polices making Ice go to the home instead of the court houses
7) 70%+ decrease in border crossings of illegal aliens in JAN,FEB,MAR,APR) 64% down in MAY
8) No Cuban refugees seen by Coast Guard in Apr first time in 7 years
9) Open bidding and plans submitted for the WALL. Finalists selected, prototypes to be unveiled this summer per CBP official/Breitbart news.
10) 6ft chain linked fences being replaced by 20ft hardened steel fencing at border
11) More than 1400 gang members have been arrested by ICE
12) This year the U.S. has already deported 398 MS-13 gang members back to El Salvador – compared to only 534 for all of 2016
13) Texas has passed a law outlawing sanctuary cities
14) Foods stamp requests by ILLEGALS D O W N
15) The Trump administration has moved to reopen the cases of hundreds of illegal immigrants who had been given a reprieve from deportation by Obama
16) Per Sec Kelly Plans are to start building the WALL by end of summer.
17) Travel ban EO cut refugees to 50,000. Has been blocked by courts so far.
18) per Breitbart Sec Kelly has refused to expand H2-B visa program in FY 2017 Update 06/22/17 Sec Kelly will expand the H2-b visa program for a limited number of businesses that are in danger of failing and can’t find employment per breitbart.
19) Pres Trump Sec of DHS ended DAPA (06/16/17)
20) Refugees dropped by half entering the USA in first three months of Pres Trump’s admin over Obama’s admin. (6/24/17 per Washington Times)
21) Per Pres Trump 6,000 MS-13 gang members arrested in first 5 months
22) Per Sec Kelly 66,000 mostly criminal illegals arrested by ICE in first 5 months
23) Kate’s Law passed the House 06/29/17)
24) No Sanctuary Cities Law Passed the House (06/29/17)
25) Illegal immigrant arrests in San Diego, Ca have more than doubled from 2016 and 2015 figures per the San Diego Union Tribune (07/04/17)
26) In a reversal of Obama administration policy, federal prosecutors with Operation Streamline are filing criminal charges against migrants the first time they are caught crossing the border illegally. Per Tucson.com and breitbart (07/05/17)
27) Refugee Arrivals Plummet in Week After Supreme Court Ruling on Trump Executive Order per Breitbart and Department of State website

ON LAW and ORDER
1) Authorities have arrested an unprecedented number of sexual predators involved in child sex trafficking rings in the United States and around the world
2) DOJ issues new sentencing guideline to enforce tougher laws on drug dealers
3) DOJ stops Obama’s slush funds
4) Massive raids on gangs going on across the nation
5) More arrests for voter fraud in 2017 then anytime in recent history.
6) DOJ and DHS ordered to take on transnational criminal gangs
7) No tolerance for violence against LEO with a signed EO
8) Fired FBI director who is and was a nutjob.
9) Nominated Wray for FBI director
10) Nominated 21 conservative judges to the federal court
11) AG Sessions dismantling the Obama legal doctrine brick by brick at the DOJ per Bloomberg (06/29/17)
12) Operation Broken Heart lead by the DOJ arrested over 1,012 sexual child predators across the nation bringing 69,000 cases against them. (06/28/17)
13) AG Sessions has asked for an extra $26 million to hire 300 prosecutors devoted to gang violence and deportation cases per Bloomberg (06/29/17)
14) DOJ drops case against the Washington Redskins (06/30/17) the era of Political correctness is over.
15) AG Sessions condemned murder of NYPD on (07/05/17) calling the attack cowardly.

ON Congressional and Executive action
1) Confirmed Gorsuch to SCOTUS
2) Signed 39+ Laws so far
3) Signed more than 30+ EO
4) Reviewing the Obama land grabs
5) Reviewing and repealing Obama’s regulations
6) Obamacare repeal and replace passed House stuck in Senate
7) Tax cuts and reform moving through Congress
8) Submitted 2018 Budget that cuts spending and give a pathway to a balanced budget in 10 years.
9) Returned power to make decisions on “transgender bathrooms” to states
10) Instituted 5-year lobbying ban for all Executive branch appointees
11) Instituted permanent lobbying ban for foreign governments for all Executive branch appointees
12) Banned aid helping foreign countries provide abortions (Mexico City Policy)
13) Formed Commission on voter fraud led by VP Pence
14) Returned the mission of NASA to space exploration
15) Installing aspects of extreme vetting at points of entry to the USA
16) signed Two bills into Law on June 2nd that makes it easier for family members of slain LEO to get benefits and that helps hire Veterans as LEO
17) Sec of VA is starting process to combine the DOD and VA medical records to improve Veteran’s health. Massive shift in government policy.
18) Pushing a massive overhaul of our FAA Air Traffic control….
19) House votes to roll back Dodd Frank goes to the Senate
20) Senate votes for VA accountability act. Goes to House passed house 06/13/17 major victory for Trump agenda signed into law on 06/23/17
21) Pushing an apprentice program to train skilled works to fill 6 million open positions.
22) The U.S. Treasury Department unveiled a sweeping plan on Monday to upend the country's financial regulatory framework, 80% of which will be done from the executive side and does not need Congress. MAGA!!!!!
23) Signed EO to reshape the education system of the USA to include votech and apprenticeships
24) Did away with rules requiring the Federal government to report on the Y2K bug 17 years after 2000.
25) President Donald Trump signed an executive order creating an accountability and whistleblower protection office at the Department of Veterans Affairs.(04/ 27/2017)
26) Sec Zinke moves to purge the Interior department of Obama holdovers (6/16/17 per Washington post)
27) Energy Department eliminating the Office of International Climate and Technology
28) 22 federal agency task force formed to help the rural America fight regulations and lack of prosperity led by Sec Perdue
29) Environmental Protection Agency has ended a nearly $1 million program that provided gym memberships for employees
30) 5-0 in special elections (GA6 primary, KS, MT, GA6 final election, SC)
31) Sec Kelly dropped many “Pro-Obama Islamic groups from funding” Groups that pushed for sharia law and closed muslim communities within the USA. (06/23/17 per breitbart)
32) TRAVEL BAN upheld by SCOTUS by 9-0 ruling. Extreme vetting will now become law of the land.
33) ScottPruitt signed #WOTUS proposed rule, supporting @POTUS order to restore the rule of law.
34) Travel BAN now in full effect across the world. (06/29/17)
35) Signed agreement to construct oil pipeline into Mexico
36) Opening up LNG centers to ship LNG across the world (06/29/17)
37) Introduced 6 point plan to unleash American energy (off shore, Nuclear, coal, NG,Oil, renewable) (06/29/17)
38) President Trump Signs EO Reviving The National Space Council (06/30/17)
39) Pentagon halts Obama’s transgender plan (07/01/17 per Breitbart)
40) Sec Devos has stopped two obama regulations from going into effect which would have harmed for profit colleges. The Gainful Employment rule and the Borrower Defense rule (06/30/17)
41) On May 4th, 2017 Pres Trump signed the Religious Freedom EO ordering his admin among other things to not enforce the Johnson amendment.
42) Reduced White House expenses by $22 million by reducing staffing levels form Obama levels. Doing more with less
43) Donald Trump’s first-quarter salary donation will help fund the restoration of two projects at Antietam National Battlefield, Department of Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke announced Wednesday per Breitbart




On Foreign Policy
1) Secured a 34,000 Arab force to fight ISIS in Iraq and Syria
2) Sent 3 carrier battle groups to NK to pressure them on nuclear program, installed THADD in SK and Japan
3) Working with China on NK
4) Sent Navy to south China Sea to secure sea lines
5) Fired 60 Tomahawks after a gas attack
6) Got the G7 countries to agree that a nation has a right to control migration and immigration
7) Had G7 countries agree NK was a threat
8) Had G7 nations agree that Trade should be FAIR as well as FREE and that nations can punish non fair trade
9) Had NATO agree to pay more and got more countries to pay their fair share of defense pact
10) Have met with more than 100 of the world leaders many at the white house
11) Pulled out of Paris Accord and freed the USA from the economic Slavery Obama sold us into
12) Have surrounded ISIS in Iraq and Syria strongholds
13) Have killed the ISIS commander in Afghanistan and reduced their strength by 2/3rd in Afghanistan
14) Dropped the MOAB on ISIS killing more than 90 ISIS fighters
15) First sitting POTUS to pray at the Western Wall
16) Restarted peace process between Israel and PLO
17) Visited the land of the three major religions in the world
18) Opening of center to defeat radical Islam in cyberspace during Saudi Arabia visit. One orb to find them in the darkness and bind them.
19) Gave powerful speech in the heart of Islam about the need to reform Islam and drive out the radicals
20) Had G7 countries agree that refugees should stay as close as possible to home country and be returned when the threat is gone
21) Got the Arab nations to cut ties to Qatar for funding terrorists. Massive historic shift in diplomatic actions in the Muslim world.
22) Started the assault on Raqqa in Syria to defeat ISIS on June 6th 2017.
23) Got Romania to up its NATO funding to 2.1% of GDP
24) Has the Special Forces helping relieve siege in Philippines.
25) visiting Poland (07/05/16)
26) Per Sec Tillerson. The PLO has stopped the payments to terrorists families. Major change in PLO policy.
27) Pres Trump’s State department secured the release of American citizen Otto Warmbeir from NK without paying $400 million ransom
28) Pres Trump admin secured the release of American citizen, Aya Hijazifor, from Egypt Jail without paying $400 million ransom.
29) Obama appointed Ambassador to Qatar “quit” during the biggest Crisis in Qatar’s history. What was she hiding?
30) Gave Sec Mattis authority to set troop numbers in Afghanistan to turn the tide of the war. 06/16/17 .
31) Rolled back Obama’s Cuban policy. 06/16/17
32) Canada promised to increase defense spending by 70% (06/16/17)
33) Gulf Countries sent Qatar a list of demands to defund terrorism, reject the Muslim brother hood so Qatar can return to the fold, direct consequence of Pres Trump’s trip to the middle east. Qatar has since rejected these demands setting a possible military conflict (updated 06/30/17)
34) NATO countries (excluding the US) increase defense spending by 4.3% from last year per daily mail and breitbart(06/30/17).
35) Per Iraq military Mosul has fallen. ISIS no longer controls the city. Just a couple pockets of resistance left per independent (06/30/17)
36) Imposed Sanctions on major China Bank for its funding of North Korea and has declared the admin will work to cut North Korea off from access to the US financial market. (06/29/17)
37) approved a $1.42billion arms deal with Taiwan (07/02/17)
38) Reached out by Twitter to offer help to save baby Charlie Gard (07/03/17)
39) The US ambassador to the UN threatens China and other countries who trade with North Korea with blockage from the USA market. (07/05/17)
40) Pres Trump increases the threat to use of trade access to the US market to stop North Korea setting up a potential for a trade war with China (07/05/17)
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Re: Socialism...

Postby sacharlie » 15 Jul 2017, 19:51

Burgerman wrote:
Can you name me one 100% Capitalist nation according to your definition of 100% Capitalist? No internal national Taxation!


Of course not. I said all along, that you need a capitalist ECONOMY with as little taxation (esp extra taxes for business and high earners) as possible and low wage or worker legislation and as little regulation as possible. Because to do the opposite makes even the poor poorer long term. We don't want a socialist economy!!!


That EXTRA TAXES talking point you switched to has nothing to do with what you promote. You are in favor of less tax on the rich and more tax on the working populace.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2017, 20:39

Not less tax. Just not the huge amounts they pay now. Let them pay, lets see... The same as you do in DOLLARS.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Sully » 15 Jul 2017, 20:49

Quote; "the rich ones won't admit how they use socialism to offset their business expenses.
How? I understand that socialism is a terrible idea that bankrupts countries. But you are promoting it via wealth redistribution in every post because you dont understand economics... But I dont see how, and as usual you dont show a logical path or reasoning. So, how?


so How ?, are US business paid Corporate welfare? Some by being paid to develop concepts for military items. (Some pretty far out there-- beam me up Scotty, come to mind) Not the finished product, just a conceptual idea. Then being paid to build an example of that idea. Eventually maybe going to contract to build what they might have dreamed up.

Boeing and the airplane builders are paid for concepts, not actual hardware (planes)! They pay exorbitant amounts to Military people to assist in this development when the idea that is developed while that person was in the service of this Nation. (Employee tampering in the world of private business) Where as a engineer or scientist can be prohibited from seeking employment from a competing employer for the same services as that civilian was hired to do for his/her previous employer. This is done in the shipbuilding industries as well. These are but two examples of huge corporate welfare schemes. Now you want to pay them more?

Now understand the billions of dollars that we the taxpayer spend on such stuff is not always poorly spent. However, it is Corporate welfare and Capitalism at its worse. There are other examples as well. But we develop stuff and the government (we) pay dearly for that will never see the light of day, or have a use for. Don't you dare to infringe on one of those secret patents, you'll be living in a concrete cell for a long time.

The sort of Capitalism you propose is to make a precious few quite rich ! And make slaves of everyone else. It kind of looks like Communism in a way ie: all for me nothing for you! When the disparity between the very very rich and the very poor is so great, something is quite wrong, and increasing that disparity will not help.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2017, 21:29

Quote; "the rich ones won't admit how they use socialism to offset their business expenses.
How? I understand that socialism is a terrible idea that bankrupts countries. But you are promoting it via wealth redistribution in every post because you dont understand economics... But I dont see how, and as usual you dont show a logical path or reasoning. So, how?

so How ?, are US business paid Corporate welfare? Some by being paid to develop concepts for military items. (Some pretty far out there-- beam me up Scotty, come to mind) Not the finished product, just a conceptual idea. Then being paid to build an example of that idea. Eventually maybe going to contract to build what they might have dreamed up.

Boeing and the airplane builders are paid for concepts, not actual hardware (planes)! They pay exorbitant amounts to Military people to assist in this development when the idea that is developed while that person was in the service of this Nation. (Employee tampering in the world of private business) Where as a engineer or scientist can be prohibited from seeking employment from a competing employer for the same services as that civilian was hired to do for his/her previous employer. This is done in the shipbuilding industries as well. These are but two examples of huge corporate welfare schemes. Now you want to pay them more?


They are companies, hoping to make a profit. Along comes the government official, that you all voted into power to do this stuff, and they ask them to develop a widget for them. Thats neither capitalism or criminal. Its just the government YOU all voted into power doing what it thinks you voted it in to do, best for either your safety, or your benefit. If you think anything illegal is going on, then take them to court.
Now understand the billions of dollars that we the taxpayer spend on such stuff is not always poorly spent. However, it is Corporate welfare and Capitalism at its worse.


Corporate "welfare" is Socialist.
Spending TAXPAYERS MONEY is socialist. I am not saying you don't need to do this, but it is NOT CAPITALIST!
Thats the OPPOSITE to capitalism!

Capitalism does not have "types". Its simply the free undistorted market of wages, products, companies, individuals, banks, and anything else. Its a self balancing system that makes the whole country pie grow! Maximum choice, free to keep anything you buy or make. Thats the end of it.

There are other examples as well. But we develop stuff and the government (we) pay dearly for that will never see the light of day, or have a use for. Don't you dare to infringe on one of those secret patents, you'll be living in a concrete cell for a long time.


Well then you should be supporting more CAPITALISM and less central government tax spending and less choice (Socialism).

The sort of Capitalism you propose is to make a precious few quite rich ! And make slaves of everyone else. It kind of looks like Communism in a way ie: all for me nothing for you! When the disparity between the very very rich and the very poor is so great, something is quite wrong, and increasing that disparity will not help.


Theres not different "sorts" of capitalism. And quite the opposite it makes ALL richer...
Its the very disparity that MAKES IT WORK!
And once it has, as it has in your own country in spite of many social distortions of the market and heavy tax on businesses, then even your POOR have more choices, food on the table, and a roof, probably a mobile phone, internet access, and a car/fridge than all other countries.

In the other countries, those with socialist tendencies, the poor die. The average person has less than your poor!

You don't get it yet. The LESS you tax the rich, the less you tax business, the more you allow unrestricted uncontrolled CAPITALISM (theres only one "type") then the richer that country becomes over time. And then even the poor have air conditioning... Instead of a few leaves. And yes the super rich/poor GAP is huge! But that does not make the poor poorer. Exactly the opposite!

Why would kurt the boat builder, decide to open a new bigger boat building factory, risk his business, house, and worry a lot etc if the reward isnt worth it? He wants to be "super rich" so he goes for it. Take all his earnings away as tax and he will not bother. To the benefit/loss of 100 new employees, a better US balance of payments, more tax from employees, business for suppliers etc. Its a rolling snowball IF YOU LET IT.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby sacharlie » 16 Jul 2017, 03:15

Burgerman wrote:Not less tax. Just not the huge amounts they pay now. Let them pay, lets see... The same as you do in DOLLARS.


I shouldn't have to pay more pennies out of my dollars while the rich gods, you worship, pay less pennies out of their dollars. That is the most basic and fair tax system possible.
If you paid taxes you would say the same.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jul 2017, 09:08

I see you still feel that they should pay more than you for the same services. That they should prop you up with their money. Remembering that we already know that they pay way hundreds of times more into the system than you do.

But you dont ever say why they should be made to help you out even more?


Or answer ANY of my straight questions. Yes I know, you want their money.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jul 2017, 09:16

Capitalists have a bad moral reputation.
People see them as bad because their economic theory is based on self-interest. Even thought I am an unrepentant capitalist, I totally agree many people who are capitalist are not good moral humans and lack love and compassion. Further, many are just plain jerks and think this economic system is some new-found religion and are rigid in their thinking.

The rich are stereotyped as greedy and heartless because of large amount of earnings they make and yet no clear value to society. They are seen as parasites off the sweat of others. However, this is where people get confused. Capitalism itself is not bad, nor are all capitalist. Capitalism is good. People confuse capitalism with corporate America and do no consider the alternative socialism for what it is, fake. Jealously is the cause of people thinking capitalism is bad, not compassion

People think capitalist lack compassion and an alternative system like socialism will bring more peace and justice to the world. In fact people think they are better people just believing in anti-capitalism. Wrong. The real poverty in the USA is a spiritual poverty, not material poverty. The poor in America would be the super rich in most places in the world. If you think capitalism is wrong, live in a post-communist country for a few years.

Socialism, capitalism’s alternative
I live in Poland a post communist country. How many anti-capitalists do I meet here? Hmm none, well one but she is American and rich. Polish people know socialism is all fake. It is the government and those in power taking power from the productive.

Capitalism has transformed the world I live in from poor to rich. Not just some people, most people. What about the poor? The poor live better than they did under socialism.

What about greedy capitalists? You know what, some people are. Really they are heartless people. But most people who make a lot of money give a lot to charity and are kind gentle people. I know, I lived around them most of my life growing up in preppy Connecticut. They are not rich and greedy, rather they are rich and live very modestly. Look at Warren Buffett he practically wears the same shoes he was married in, and did not he and Bill Gates give away all their money basically?

People fill their heart with resentment towards capitalist because they feel somehow when someone else wins someone else must lose. The reality is life is not a zero sum game. To understand and meditate on what this means is important. It means that when someone wins someone else wins. Always, except in extreme cases.

Who is bad in the capitalist world?
I would say large corporations are pretty scummy. I am an unrepentant capitalist, but I believe that corporate America does not uphold the ideals of Adam Smith. Adam Smith was a moral philosophy and believed in enlighten self-interest, not Ayn Rand selfishness. It is too complex to explain in a short post, but there is a big difference from being a capitalist and working for working for corporate America. A capitalist is creative and risk taking and wants to add value to a society. Corporate warriors are more about a paycheck and bonus, two different things.

Next time you ask the question is capitalism good or bad, consider the capitalist vs the large corporation (corporate socialism). Consider Capitalism like we have in free America and the socialism that Poland or Russian had during communism. I think you will see the answer that capitalism is not bad at all.

What capitalism does
It allows you to express yourself and give you the freedom to choose. It does not promise to make everyone equal, but rather lets you decide what you want to do with your life. Is capitalism bad? No. Self expression does not sound too bad to me. This means, whether it is is setting up a yoga school or writing a book or being a electrician like Lech Wałesa.

http://political-economy.com/is-capitalism-bad/
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Re: Socialism...

Postby sacharlie » 16 Jul 2017, 17:38

Sully wrote:
The sort of Capitalism you propose is to make a precious few quite rich ! And make slaves of everyone else. It kind of looks like Communism in a way ie: all for me nothing for you! When the disparity between the very very rich and the very poor is so great, something is quite wrong, and increasing that disparity will not help.


Yep but BM aka MARK won't admit that.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Sully » 16 Jul 2017, 18:08

Let's face it, Corporations and multinational corporations ARE the face of Capitalism, of everything that can be found to be Good or BAD. The face we see 99.999% of the time is the BAD! And the individual face of these Corporations is the main operations people CEO's, EEO's, Board heads, and occasionally Different department heads. The arrogance they publicly present, does nothing to endear them to the general public. This again is the face of Capitalism we see.

Theses men/women epitomize the guy who has no practical knowledge or experience in the field their particular corporations represent. However, a few NOW have taken to promoting some practically experienced leadership to these positions. Some of these people are simply placed there as a scapegoat, to deflect the problems the corporation in question to take the heat. The problem the general public rarely learn of these things soon enough not to have very bad memories of the original bad deeds of the corporation, that created the reactions to start. Their corporate changes, if any come too little and too late.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby sacharlie » 16 Jul 2017, 19:49

And the corporists are so damn arrogant. It has gotten to the point where they no longer hide themselves. The biggest thumb your nose is the Koch brothers PAC with the name of "citizens united". Nothing "citizen" about promoting the interest of corporations over the benefit of the country and populace. But this is the USA with the best government money can buy.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jul 2017, 20:54

As usual you are confusing capitalism. Capitalism has nothing to do with your problems. Dishonest corporates are.

Let's face it, Corporations and multinational corporations ARE the face of Capitalism, of everything that can be found to be Good or BAD. The face we see 99.999% of the time is the BAD! And the individual face of these Corporations is the main operations people CEO's, EEO's, Board heads, and occasionally Different department heads. The arrogance they publicly present, does nothing to endear them to the general public. This again is the face of Capitalism we see.


Wrong.

The fact that you OWN a car, house, phone, washing machine, and have food on the table IS THE FACE OF CAPITALISM.
The fact that you can earn more by working harder, or educating yourself. The fact that you can start a business. Even a small one. IS THE FACE OF CAPITALISM.
The fact that you can CHOOSE a job, where to live, and are not starving, and there is fuel available, and the shelves are not empty of everything, is THE FACE OF CAPITALISM.
The fact that you and the poorest in society can have a roof, food, car, widescreen TV and safe streets, military, and a safety net is the FACE OF CAPITALISM.
The fact that you have a computer and internet access to write this - THE FACE OF CAPITALISM.
Its what PAYS for everything. And raises living standards for all. Without it, you would live without roof or food.

Corporates and multinationals are NOT capitalism. They are what you said. Corporate's and multinationals. They may have got rich because of capitalism, as everything does, however. Dont blame capitalism for their behavior. Blame your lack of control or actions that allow them to behave illegally.

The fact that some corporates are dishonest is not capitalism... Its criminality, or if you allow it then its badly written or ignored laws. And its irrelevant compared to the fact that you can EAT! Socialist countries cannot usually. Sooner or later they adopt CAPITALISM so as to have all the things you already have!

And the corporists are so damn arrogant. It has gotten to the point where they no longer hide themselves. The biggest thumb your nose is the Koch brothers PAC with the name of "citizens united". Nothing "citizen" about promoting the interest of corporations over the benefit of the country and populace. But this is the USA with the best government money can buy.


And buying politicians is the OPPOSITE to free trade. The OPPOSITE to Capitalism! Do you still not understand what capitalism is??? And is??? Or do you know I am right and dont want to lose face and so keep saying the same garbage?
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Sully » 17 Jul 2017, 16:15

Answer to quotes; "The fact that you OWN a car, house, phone, washing machine, and have food on the table IS THE FACE OF CAPITALISM. < Agreed to this>

[b]The fact that you can earn more by working harder[/b], WRONG the hardest working people are generally paid the least, that's the fact.

or educating yourself. I did this, yes it helps, but a piece of paper doesn't make your fortune. Perseverance and direction of study to a particular purpose, is far more helpful.

"The fact that you can start a business. Even a small one. IS THE FACE OF CAPITALISM." Yes But it is Democracy and Democratic law, that does the most of this NOT some Economic philosophy.


The fact that you can CHOOSE a job, where to live
, This is because of democratic laws and principals and are not starving, and there is fuel available, and the shelves are not empty of everything, is THE FACE OF CAPITALISM. Capitalism alone does not accomplish this. Capitalism doesn't prevent these endeavors, as a Communist (national) philosophy does.

I do get what you are saying and you are not entirely wrong However, you attribute things entirely to Capitalism that should not be attributed to that financial philosophy.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2017, 17:52

The fact that you can earn more by working harder, WRONG the hardest working people are generally paid the least, that's the fact.


I agree, should have said smarter too. I should have also added added that it gives you the CHOICE to do any job, or start you own business too. But theres only so much space, I would have thought this was obvious.

or educating yourself. I did this, yes it helps, but a piece of paper doesn't make your fortune. Perseverance and direction of study to a particular purpose, is far more helpful.


True. And thats the point. FREEDOM of choice, free trade, free to move jobs, work for yourself, negotiate wages. That IS CAPITALISM.

"The fact that you can start a business. Even a small one. IS THE FACE OF CAPITALISM." Yes But it is Democracy and Democratic law, that does the most of this NOT some Economic philosophy.


No. Capitalism is a single thing. Free trade. Freedom to do and sell/make/employ/invest/etc. It has zero to do with laws. Or rules. Those only restrict it, and prevent free trade. And remove choice. Capitalism is not political in any way. Its not an ideology like socialism, its simply a way to allow freedom from control. To allow people to do what they do best to improve THEIR OWN position financially. it says absolutely nothing about how to run a business, laws, or how to police, or run society. Socialism, does this.

The fact that you can CHOOSE a job, where to live, This is because of democratic laws and principals and are not starving, and there is fuel available, and the shelves are not empty of everything, is THE FACE OF CAPITALISM. Capitalism alone does not accomplish this. Capitalism doesn't prevent these endeavors, as a Communist (national) philosophy does.


CAPITALISM means freedom to trade, sell, keep profits or gains for yourself. Thats ALL it means. If you allow that, you end up with a rich country. The US is the most capitalist country on earth, and also the richest. So capitalism absolutely is the reason that the shops are full, etc. Communism never existed other than as an ideal. The closest it came was a very socialist government. Socialism is basically the transfer of wealth, the reduction of inequality until everyone has the same, and doesn't own property of any kind. And eventually the lack of anything to drive the economy forwards. It adds controls to the free trade, meaning you all end up poorer. Every time you transfer wealth from the rich to the poor the pie gets smaller over time.

I do get what you are saying and you are not entirely wrong However, you attribute things entirely to Capitalism that should not be attributed to that financial philosophy.


sacharlie wont. He isn't capable! He just wants other people cash for himself.

Its not a philosophy in any way. Its like saying abstinence is a sex position. It is simply uncontrolled freedom allowing people to do what they want! And they WANT to trade, work, produce, manufacture, get rich! Its a total LACK of philosophy. The lack of taxation. The lack of control, the lack of gov interference in any way that is capitalism. The more you try and control it, or skim from the top to give to the poor, etc the worse the country's economy as a whole does. It may take decades to show this. However you must take some to pay for infrastructure etc. But its always best to do so without slowing or taking away the thing that drives the entrepreneur. And taxing the rich ever more does exactly that. Now when you mention corruption, and paid off politicians, back handers etc, that is NOT capitalism! Thats crime. And that exists as much or moreso in socialist countries too.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby sacharlie » 17 Jul 2017, 19:25

Burgerman wrote:
No. Capitalism is a single thing. Free trade. Freedom to do and sell/make/employ/invest/etc. It has zero to do with laws. Or rules. Those only restrict it, and prevent free trade. And remove choice. Capitalism is not political in any way. Its not an ideology like socialism, its simply a way to allow freedom from control. To allow people to do what they do best to improve THEIR OWN position financially. it says absolutely nothing about how to run a business, laws, or how to police, or run society.

CAPITALISM means freedom to trade, sell, keep profits or gains for yourself. Thats ALL it means. If you allow that, you end up with a rich country. The US is the most capitalist country on earth, and also the richest. So capitalism absolutely is the reason that the shops are full, etc.

Sully wrote:I do get what you are saying and you are not entirely wrong However, you attribute things entirely to Capitalism that should not be attributed to that financial philosophy.


sacharlie wont. He isn't capable! He just wants other people cash for himself.

Its not a philosophy in any way. Its like saying abstinence is a sex position. It is simply uncontrolled freedom allowing people to do what they want! And they WANT to trade, work, produce, manufacture, get rich! Its a total LACK of philosophy. The lack of taxation. The lack of control, the lack of gov interference in any way that is capitalism. The more you try and control it, or skim from the top to give to the poor, etc the worse the country's economy as a whole does. It may take decades to show this. However you must take some to pay for infrastructure etc. But its always best to do so without slowing or taking away the thing that drives the entrepreneur. And taxing the rich ever more does exactly that. Now when you mention corruption, and paid off politicians, back handers etc, that is NOT capitalism! Thats crime. And that exists as much or moreso in socialist countries too.


You are promoting rule by idiocracy. Taxing the Plutocracy at lower rates than the working populace in no way promotes economic growth or prosperity or a democratic society.Your whole rant on the issue of capitalism/socialism has nothing to do with trickle down economics. You started this rant because you have no standing to rebut the failure of trickle down economics. Give it a rest.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2017, 20:18

You are promoting rule by idiocracy.


Again you have no clue. I and CAPITALISM promotes nothing. Its simply free trade, free labour, and allowing the people to do what they do best, help themselves. Capitalism HAS NO IDEOLOGY. So cannot "promote" anything. Clueless in the extreme. As I said all along, you dont even know what capitalism is!

Taxing the Plutocracy at lower rates than the working populace in no way promotes economic growth

Wrong. It obviously does. I can show many ways that it does. You never show one way it doesn't. Just claims. he fact that your own country is the richest on the planet is evidence that capitalism works. You have the most capitalistic society anywhere. AND as I have repeated endlessly to you, but you are too ignorant to understand, You are already taxing them MORE. You fixate on percentage rates only because that means that you can hide behind some mathematics like a coward rather than the actual DOLLARS! A trick to hide the fact that you want them to pay MORE DOLLARS for everything, to prop up your meager tax dollars, to support you and pay for you.

And as usual you never seem to explain why you think anyone else should pay more to support YOU!

or prosperity or a democratic society.Your whole rant on the issue of capitalism/socialism has nothing to do with trickle down economics. You started this rant because you have no standing to rebut the failure of trickle down economics. Give it a rest.


You have no clue. Explain to me how YOU think trickle down economics works? Or is supposed to work? You wont, because you have no idea! The fact that you and even the poorest in your society, live better than the average person in any other less capitalist society proves that it DOES work. You have a roof, a car, a TV, a phone, fridge, and a computer as well as food, heat and clothes right? No socialist countries have that. You know, he ones that take everything from the rich and give to the poor to even out equality. And capitalism (free non interfered with trade) has worked in your favour.

But as usual you wont answer any of this. All you do is repeat the same confused crap from some socialist web page without understanding a thing.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 20 Aug 2017, 01:16

CUBA has been surviving in spite of socialism only fot 2 reasons. Tourism. And the fact that in spite of hating it, castros replacement allowed licences for small businesses. Ie, capitalism in a small way. It alowed lots of free enterprise in a small way.

This has just been reversed, because they want tosee it done in a socialist way... Which of course never works. So they are forcing them to become cooperatives. So expect cuba's soon to be hungry, to be taking to biscuit tins or anything that floats to get to the US sometime soon. Give it a couple of years.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Sully » 23 Aug 2017, 18:04

Rusty I have long ago accepted according to the rules of our country, Hillary lost and Trumplethinskin won. OK I get it. However, I do not have to like that fact, I am a crip and I don't like that fact either. Who gives a F !

Must I kiss the Donald's ass? He won why is he sill campaigning? The only person on this planet who cannot accept his win appears to be the Donald. However, he will occupy the White House for 3+ years more. I am currently am listening to the Donald still talks like a half drunk guy talking rag time in a bar.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 23 Aug 2017, 18:20

Really?

The people that have not accepted his win, and his policy, includes many in his own party. But mostly:

The LIBERAL media who frame anything trump in a negative way, and go out of their way to do so. And all the newsreaders, guests, talk show hosts, etc are all anti trump. They are not @fake news@ as he puts it but heavily biased.

This includes TV, Papers, Magazines, Internet news sites (most of them) etc. And all the college snow flakes and their biased liberal leftist views, from their safe rooms, the socialists left that keep on sulking, Green's that are still trying to save the planet. At every possible opportunity. And ever since the WRONG democratic result happened. His supporters are looked down upon by all of these people. They treat them with discust, as low life, uneducated ignorant deplorable s, etc. Whatever he says or does, if it happens to disagree with their lefty, liberal worldview they sulk. Watch the news! Its a joke. The liberal elites cant help themselves.

So he is correct. The news is totally biased against him. He is still an idiot mind with the attention span of a newt. But a democratic result is OK only if its the liberal left that win. They cant accept that they lost because they *know* they are right. We see the same stupid pro EU idiots here. They still have not accepted that the LEAVE group won.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Sully » 23 Aug 2017, 18:31

John, There is NO Castro???? The replacement Raul Castro is still a CASTRO Fidel is gone, but Raul Castro is very much the same, let us see what occurs when the "Strong? man is no longer present, will it be like Tito, and what occurred in Venezuela? Like most dictators there is little thought given to a future. Problems arise when lots of people have empty bellies. Then there is nothing to lose, that empty belly creates anger, and death looks rather good as an immediate alternative.

Socialism as a 100% political policy does not work, but some of the individual things which many call socialism DO work. Medical insurance is one of them. Education is another. There are many levels of education exactly where these levels are judged to qualify is a matter for debate.

I certainly believe in self determination and self support, so stuff like personal endeavors and other "capitalistic" philosophies are more than appropriate.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 23 Aug 2017, 18:55

Socialism as a 100% political policy does not work, but some of the individual things which many call socialism DO work. Medical insurance is one of them. Education is another. There are many levels of education exactly where these levels are judged to qualify is a matter for debate.


Theres a difference. Successful western countries use a primarily capitalist economy. With a social(ist) medical, care, out of work support system, and for streets, schools, fire, police, military etc. To pay for those at the bottom and to pay for infrastructure. They don't use a socialist economic model... Like Venezuela. Columbia. North Korea. Or Cuba. Because they want to eat.

Cuba did until the new guy took over. Yes hes another castro. He allowed licenses to run small businesses where the business owners can employ, keep the profits etc as in any capitalist system. But they just decided to remove that privilege. Why? The dreaded gap between those that have nothing, and those that have almost nothing was starting to appear... And as a true socialist believer, they cant allow that! So they are going back to absolutely nothing for all. Gov run and planned businesses only. Give it time and they will start rowing across on anything that floats.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Sully » 23 Aug 2017, 19:27

Quote; "Theres a difference. Successful western countries use a primarily capitalist economy. With a social(ist) medical, care, out of work support system, and for streets, schools, fire, police, military etc. To pay for those at the bottom and to pay for infrastructure. They don't use a socialist economic model... Like Venezuela. Columbia. North Korea. Or Cuba. Because they want to eat."

RIGHT ! And that is what I have all but preached; "MODERATION" That spot in the middle, neither total Capitalism or Socialism. BUT, GET THIS -- NOT WITHOUT TAXATION. Large corporations and individual businesses use proportionally more of these resources than that of a hourly wage worker. Hence unequal tax rate/payments.
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Re: Socialism...

Postby Burgerman » 23 Aug 2017, 20:04

Do they? I think not. Most big companies take the system they exist in and make money for the benefit of ALL inc the employees and country. They will if not chased away, and allowed to invest/grow make society richer.

The people using or working for big companies all use the same medical care etc. The company uses none.
The people working dont claim unemployment, or gov help in any way. The company claims nothing. What it DOES do is employ all the people, so that they now pay tax. It already benefits the comunity and country by providing services and goods, employment and tax from employees, and VAT on everything they can now buy. Thats why we now have food on shelves, and live longer than the poorer countries. And the reason you dont want to move to venuzuala. It also mean they employees do not claim unemployment or housing help. It also benefits the country through exports, and income for the country it wouldnt have had so improves balance of payments.

And you want to tax it heavily on top to try and top all of these benefits/growth/investments that drives it all, the thing that makes it work? That pays for everything? That is socialist.That is proven not to be beneficial esp long term. Its why trump who undertands this, is now lowering your crazy 39% corp tax to 20%. Because thats why most of your manufacturing and work, income, balance of payments, standards of living, went south! It actually went overseas... Or shrunk, went bust.
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