PINNED - Configuring a new chair (essential!!!)

[Burgerman]

This is a list of things that your delivery or "fitting" or initial setup should include. The difference between a properly set up and correctly detailed chair is much greater than a totally different powerchaIr. The difference it makes can totally make or break every powerchair. And this frankly is never done! At best one or two things may be adjusted.

I will use my new (to me but unused eBay) chair from 2 years ago. The Q700 R powerchair here as an example. Similat r things apply to EVERY new chair. Untill these details are fully attended to, none of my new chairs was really very "finished" and in some cases borderline unusable. Most people suffer this from day 1 and think its them having to get used to or "learn" a new chair... Its not.


ARMS 1
I will begin with the ARMS and will presume you have already ordered the correct parts.
On this chair and the other Q chairs from sunrise there are many different arm uprights, many different arm tops, fixed and swing away pod mounts, 45 different joysticks, and a seat back lift up option. So your adjustments may depend on your options that you choose, and your needs. This is a general guide to the type of adjustments and fine tuning to properly finish the job.

I didnt have a choice, (eBay) so my own chair came with arms that were frankly hopeless. They were the upright ones that swing "back" out of the way for transfering or desktops. They are full of freeplay, and wobble back and forth as you drive. Also weak and flex all over and twist if you try to put any weight on them. So I took them off, and chucked them unused in a box. There was no point in doing anything with those as far as I was concerned. Useless.

I replaced those with FIXED lift off (upwards) ones instaed ordered new. Those were better. No back and forth movement. But still weak. So I added 2 ADDITIONAL ones which was not ever intended by the manufacturer. So now I have 4 arm uprights. I had to turn these arms back to front, and side to side so they "slope" the opposite way compared to a stock chair. This takes up every mm of the top mounting track, is very fiddly to reassemble, and took me around 2 hours of frustration and re, re, re building till I got it right. Result is a set of solid reliable arms you can lean on that do not wobble or flex or move. THAT was how it should have been from the start.

You can see the DOUBLE reversed arms in the following pictures. Remember you must analise your chair, whatever the make, and make your own essential changes to height, position in the back/forward position, width, etc. And if weak, or wrong type, make changes that YOU need. This is an example of proper setup. Without these changes the Q700 R would have been useless with short lived bent arms that felt weak and wobbly. This was an ESSENTIAL first step after delivery.

Here is the result. Note that they slope or lean the opposite way to a stock chair as well. They are harder to remove however. But still possible but you need to pull harder after flipping 4 levers. They are pretty strong/solid.

They are adjusted to the correct position as far as back and forwards. And height. And width. For me.

[Burgerman]

POD positioning. Swingaway.

Details in picture.
Fine tuning and position.
This is essential to get correct pod positioning (hight enough, and to make it stay where it is put! In position B and with a gap.

Details for both the Joystick, and the Switch It control box for seating. Details matter!!!

[Burgerman]

These are the sort of finishing off details, that should mostly be done to your chair after you recieve it. There is a days work tidying up the arms and controller mountings, to get everything neat, tidy, solidly mounted in the correct positions here. Some of this is to correct bad design. Some of it is simple configuration. Which should have been setup by whowever delivered or configured your chair on day 1.

But all of it is pretty much essential. More to come, but thats just the arms covered!!! So more to come.

[Burgerman]

SEATING 1

This rear drive Q700 chair came with lift. Which complicates thiNgs regarding moving the seating back to move CG back so that it can steer properly. Because of stability reasons. More on this and how to deal with it later.

So...
Where to start this part of the setup is all sort of joined up. Why? Because one of the seating OPTIONS that I had retro fitted by the eBay seller, who was a powechair dealer, was to swap the typical god-awful power swing away legrests for the power centre mount footrest. This is critical. Without this change almost every rear drive powerchair is completely hopeless. Because the almost universal "swing away" ones fitted to practically every rear drive powerchair cause the seat to be fitted in a very forward nose heavy position where all of a users mass sits over the front of the chair. This may only be a few inches. It makes a massive difference. Because your heels must sit in front of a caster wheel, even when it is reversed. So your feet/legs get stuck out in front. Since you are attached to these legs, your seat must also be far enough forward for this to happen.

This leaves the whole chair feeling oil tanker long, with a lot of mass over the caster wheels meaning it has low traction on the drive wheels which need masses of torque/amps and battery power to turn. And sometimes there simply isnt enough. So the thing steers terribly. Programming cannot fix this. It also means you lose traction and control on uneven surfaces or at the top of a ramp for e.g as you try to turn. A centre mount plate allows you to move your heels back partly between the front casters. Which in turn allows the seat and you to be moved back putting more weight on the drive wheels, less of the casters, making the chair shorter, with a narrow front so its easier to turn into places without your feet hitting a door frame.furniture. And far less power wasted or needed to turn. So now we ordered to correct footplate! Phew.

And that allows us once we fitted smaller caster tyres (see pics above, as they show the smaller 8 inch diameter x 3.00 wide front casters. And the removed front fenders/mudguards. Because the front caster arms, are too close together on the Q chairs. The older Salsa chair is much better here! Redesigned by an idiot... These changes make it possible to gain another inch... And thats a lot. The whole seat only needs to go back a few inches total.

[Burgerman]

SEATING 2

OK so now we moved the seat back. Shortened the chair. Made it steer better Made it shorter and narrower at the front with the centre plate. All great!

But this introduces a problem. When reclined, when tilted. And when using the lift, the chair is now unsafe as it can and will fall over backwards in spite of the anti tips... So you really want the lift to move the seat forwards an inch or more as it lifts you. So heres the easy solution. yOU WANT negative seat angle, or dump in the seating lift/recline module. The smaller 8 inch front casters already add some negative seat angle. And in my case the slightly larger diameter rear tyres also add some negative seat dump angle to the whole chair. Maybe minus 2 degrees. We want around 3 to 4 degrees. So modify the seat lift mountings. Some have extra holes, like the Q700R. Some like the salsa do too. This allows you to have the whole tilt/lift module canted slightly forwards. So as it lifts it moves the seating forwards too. This means that the chair is no longer trying to fall over backwards when you do lift/recline/tilt all at once. So safer.

But now you have a negative dump seat in its fully forward position. Thats uncomfortable. I personally prefer the seat dump at around 6 degrees with my backside lower than my knees. Now you COULD just se a little tilt. But driving around in this position stresses the seating system, and the actuator and these will fail sooner or later. Dont do this. It also means the seat is more "wobbly" and flexes around. So bad news. Instead remove the seat and add longer bolts, and spacers under the seat front mountings so that the seat base sits in top of the lift module at the angle you prefer to drive around at. Like seat dump at 6 degrees? Like mine. This means you have the correct comfortable seat dump, while the tilt is fully down. And solid. No flex. And now you have the full tilt angle available. So 30 degree plus your static 6 degrees. All goog and essential!

All of this stuff, is the sort of thing EVERY users chair needs and never gets done.

[Burgerman]

SEATING 3

Simple!
Adjust width, depth, base backrest angle, footrest height, and angle if not powered. Arm width, arm top length and position. Headrest angle and position. And get rid of any extended bolts and adjusters, or extra links, etc. Also usually forgotted FOOT ANGLE. It needs to be right or your foot falls off the footplate! Like most...

All this stuff must be done. Should be done by the dealer that delivered the chair. All this TAKES MORE THAN A DAY.

[Burgerman]

PROGRAMMING

Basically ALL powerchairs are delivered with unbelievable programming that has low turn acceleration settings. And low turn deceleration settings. The result is that no stock powerchair can hit a barn door.

Theres a whole section on this.
To minimise this and make it quick, you will need an OEM programmer. And will need to set a lot of things. But most important of all is to remove all the hovercraft style steering delays.

This bit is simple.
In the OEM part remove all the walls. Then set:
TURN ACCELERATION
MIN TURN ACCELERATION
TURN DECELERATION
MIN TURN DECELERATION
All to 100 - DONT COMPROMISE!!!

Then set
TURN SPEED
MINIMUM TURN SPEED (when set to the lowest speed on your contoller)
To whatever you are comfortable with. So these will now need lowering slightly.

Now your chair will steer properly. It will turn when told. Not afterwards. It will STOP TURNING the moment you tell it to.

[Burgerman]

WHEELS/TYRES

Apart from the obvious, like, order or fit it with the type and colour that you want theres little to do other than drive it around and adjust pressures to whatever is your best compromise between tyre or caster shake, comfort, battery range, etc.

Anthing other than that, such as fitting different rims, lower profile/wider or tubeless tyres is not really part of this. But it is also possible as on my own chairs. For e.g. to give greater clearance to allow the footplate/seat to move back another inch I replaced the 9 inch front caster tyres with 8 inch smooth ones.

[Burgerman]

OTHER

Things such as Lithium conversions, fitting a tie down bolt, different rims, or adding tyre sealers, USB charge ports, anderson charger and other uses connectors, and many other modifications are also possible. And depending on your useage may be essential to you. But are not really part of the initial setup on a new chair.

This was a list and some examples of what I consider to be essential setup on any new or new to you powerchair. Much of it should have been done for you by whowever suplied and delivered your chair. But it seems that at best you get half an hour while someone that isnt competant adjust the seat depth or arm width. Possibly a dumb attempt with a dealer level programmer to configure it. nd then the chair and user are abandoned to struggle to get to "learn" the new chair. Which really means learn to use it and its differences and peculiarities. Most of these are not actually "peculiarities or differences" that should exist at all!

I have 5 chairs. All are configured in a way that means my seating positions, control pod positions, and my programming are pretty much identical. I literally forget which chair I am in as they all look different but feel exactly the same as eash other in every practical way. From responce, CG position, contol feel, and seating & user position. And if this isnt the case then something is misconfigured, sat at the wrong angle or place, or loose, or setup differently.

Unless you are moving to a different platform such as rear drive to mid or front drive. And thats a user preference. What I do know is that even having one thing configured incorrectly can turn a good chair into an unrecognisable and really bad chair. As such I see literally no value in a test drive if comparing say rear drive chairs. Because as long as they are all say indoor/small with no suspention, or outdoor style with bigger tyres and suspension, as a group then all you are really "feeling" is the setup configuration. Which may be good or bad for you.

As such LOOKING closely to see what you are getting such as the close together casters on the Q700/Q500 rear drive chairs allows you to determine how much you can move a centre plate back. If surgery will be needed and how difficult it will be. It should also be possible to see what control systems are AVAILABLE (i.e. I want 120A R-Net ONLY!) and if quality 4 pole motors, decent suspension travel, what tyre sizes are possible, what seating options are possible etc. But you dont really need a "test drive" to understand any of that.

[elryko1992]

Hi! BM put a tutorial or photos how you make the RIMS larger for Quickie. Thanks!

[Burgerman]

Not sure I have photos.
To do what I did you need to get two old JIVE rims. Take the REAR tyre retaining rim half, trim off the adge so that its just a ring, with bolt holes. Then use it as a spacer between the two Q500/ Q700 rim halves.

Then fit a 110/80 - 8 or a 120/70 - 8 tyre like the duro one for e.g.

[Burgerman]

Found ONE pic!

This shows a Sunrise medical, Quickie Jive rim part, with the bit that holds the tyre on trimmed off. The second one in that pic shows another onethe same that I sprayed black with a satin black spray can (rattle can).

This forms a spacer in the middle of the Q chairs wheel rim wih longer bolts.
The part where the valve came through, was filled with sticky tape either side and filled with car body filler. And sanded smooth. Before painting black obviously.

The result is a 3 .0 inch wide 3 part rim.

[Toro]

BM can you do the seat dump without moving the center of gravity back and be safe from tipping over?

I have a different chair but I too like my sitting position to have a 6 degree dump and been using the tilt but when in van feeling like a bouncing ball.

[Burgerman]

Yes. My seat has 5 or 6 degrees of "dump " angle when fully forwards and low as it goes. And it doesent wheelie with 70% acceleration dialed in. It does JUST at 85%.

The angle change on the seat lift/tilt module was to make its CG move further forwards when high up. Because if the ground is a couple of degrees wrong, or someone/something nudges you you dont want to tip back when elevated and crack your head - especially from that height. The higher you are the greater the tipping danger if the ground is not completely level. So you want more security. Worse, even gentle acceleration if you move may cause it to tip back and fall over if you are high up. As the raised CG has more "leverage"... So greater stability via a more forwrd CG is needed.

The ACTUAL seat dump on my chair is around 5 degrees. Unmeasured by eye... But the lift is canted forwards by around 3 degrees. So that requires your seat to be tilted back in relation to the lift module. I used some alloy spacers, and a couple of washers to achieve that.

[Burgerman]

Remember that these types of configuration are personal to you, your weight, your usage, your particular chair design, etc.

REAR DRIVE.
Try getting someone to pull the chair back and see how hard it it to tip its wheels off the deck when lowered. And drive it when lowered to see if the CG is where YOU want it for light steering, and tip stability.

If you drive about very tilted, try it while in that configuration. And settle on a compromise between stability and light steer/easy manoeverability etc that suits your situation and wants.

Now raise the seat to its highest position. Get someone to pull it back and see how easy it is to pull and cause the casters to leave the deck. You will be very surprised. Now tilt/recline while elevated, and it may even fall over without any assistance! And tip even at super low acceleration speeds. And out you fall...

So once you do this you will understand why I make the lift mechanism "aim" slightly forwards. So it oves you maybe an inch forwards as it lifts. This makes it more stable. And you then need to level uup the seat or add your preferred dump, via spacers under the seat base. To correct the angle back to what you prefer.

This is all chair, user, etc dependent. TEST on the street. When high TEST but do so with a bed directly behind the chair. So if it falls you dont get in touble!
For what its worth, falling out backwards doesent actually hurt much if the seat elevator is set to low. I must have done it at least a dozen times. Just keep your head forwards! And then call someone for a rescue! I would NOT want to try that if elevated. It would give head injuries at very least.

[garriew]

Which leg rests did you use? Sunrise told someone I know there are not 90° angle points for rear wheelchairs. Her DME stated he did not know any aftermarket ones either

[Burgerman]

Which leg rests did you use? Sunrise told someone I know there are not 90° angle points for rear wheelchairs. Her DME stated he did not know any aftermarket ones either

Have no idea what that even means.

The only thing preventing 90 degree retraction on a rear drive chair is the rear of the footlates and caster tyres wanting to be in the same place. So it limits how far back you can pull in the footrest. You will never get 90 degrees.
Fitting smaller tyres, or choosing a chair with wider caster centre points, will still not allow full 90 degrees unless you have the seat too far forwards. Even swing aways are typically 70 degrees and thats with the seat a long way too far forwards. All ths complicatin is why every stock rear drive chair is so nose heavy. It takes a little effort to reconfigure things to make them steer properly and not feel long.

The seat frame is the same across all the Q300, Q400, Q500, Q700, in mid drive, rear drive, hybrid, and front drive. It literally bolts on with two bolts.

The actual types of centre mount footrests are all capable of 90 or very close to that. And there are non adjustable non powered (manual bolt in the position you choose) ones, ones that are powered in two different footplate lengths, and these can be long, short, and or extended so they can reach to the ground.

So in all about 5 or 6 types.

The one I personally have was for sale on the same website by same seller on eBay as the Q700 powerchair. It had the godawful power swing away ones fitted. I agreed with the seller to fit the centre mount one instead, and in the price. I made an offer. £4400 complete with the centre mount footplate. Chair was unmarked, and had single digit miles. All the expensive options, power everything, lights, 4 pole, 120A and CJSM2 and unwanted Gyro... Delivered with 12 months warranty. With centremount fitted.

[fishinjunky]

THANKS for this BM. excellent and essential information

[700R]

OTHER

Things such as Lithium conversions, fitting a tie down bolt, different rims, or adding tyre sealers, USB charge ports, anderson charger and other uses connectors, and many other modifications are also possible. And depending on your useage may be essential to you. But are not really part of the initial setup on a new chair.

Excellent thread.

Have you looked into fitting lithium yet? I'm assuming there's a decent amount of room for the 'normal' set-up? Have you tried it in your van yet? Have you fitted Anderson connectors or are you waiting until you fit lithium?

[Burgerman]

Righ now its a backup chair. And so its still got a set of cheap lead bricks. Its going to get lithium. And while battery is out a mounting bolt. It has exactly the same seating position, as all my other chairs. And so will be fine in my van, I have driven it in, but no bolt. Yet.

Its also got the exact same grp 24 battery compartment as all group 24 chairs. Thats the standardised minimum size. 260mm wide. 340mm long, 220mm tall. So any lithium that fis in that size will fit. It cannot be less or the lead wouldnt fit. Salsa is exactly the same volume/size allso awaiting lithium, but that chair I am currently using. Since I am still not getting up full days (yet) theres no rush for lithium. But I think I finally have the sores fixed! I will do both these chairs at the same time.

[700R]

And while battery is out a mounting bolt. It has exactly the same seating position, as all my other chairs. And so will be fine in my van, I have driven it in, but no bolt. Yet.

Seating position might be but I'm thinking footrests won't be as far back as the other chairs and as you drive from your chairs I think they'll meet the bulkhead before your pin does. No matter what you do to these 700Rs they are still way longer than the Salsa. I'm wondering if the size of the smaller footplates are worth considering to gain a bit more leeway, though I doubt there's much difference.

[Burgerman]

Theres lots of room when I tested. My stomach hits the wheel first! ***

If that WAS a problem for you for some reason, then the caster wheels would be facing back. Since you just drove in. So you could just move the footrest back a fair bit anyway. for the last few inches. And so it wouldnt matter.

*** the fatter rear tyres rub against the door pillar in my rollx converted van if the chair is central and correctly positioned to the steering wheel. But not a problem. Just!

[700R]

Theres lots of room when I tested. My stomach hits the wheel first!

What angle is your stomach at?

[Burgerman]

The wrong one.

[Toro]

Hey BM I'm looking at purchasing a new wheelchair as a backup. My older one is like 20 years old and I'm just not comfortable with not have another in an emergency that's not up to my liking.

I've seen your thread here for the Salsa and the Q700R, I'm liking both and in Australia I can purchase the Q700r no problem, the Salsa on the other hand is different here, and I'm not sure it's a similar model or not but it's called the Q200R.

Here are a couple of pics of it, it's also on the Sunrise Australia webpage, can you take a look a see if it's the same and if it's possible to fit it out like your mods you did.

Cheers

[Burgerman]

No its not a salsa. Its similar. But it has:

Smaller batteries.
Narrower base.
Far less options, for e.g all motors are 2 pole. Theres no high speed options. No 120A power module option, no lift, etc. In SOME countries (the US) theres also no centre footplate option. So its all very low end stuff. Is that OK as your backup chair? It may be, depends on you.

In rear drive theres a bunch of Q chairs.
Q50 (small portable folding lithium lightweight chinese made),
Q100 (same as Q200 with smaller wheels and tyres.
Q200 with "normal" outdoor wheels and tyres. Very entry level as they describe it...
Q300 new, see below.
Q500 same as Q700 narrow front caster spacing etc but without front suspension. Can be low spec or high, at which point its the same pice as the Q700.
Q700 not with low spec anything, 120A, 4 Pole ec. (Unless you get the "motobility" version. Thats low spec...

Check here https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... heelchairs

[Toro]

I had a feeling that was the case, for me it's not an option. I'm wanting it to go on drives along the beach and river, need the tilt to save my ass from dysrelexia and another pressure sore.

I don't think you can get the salsa here and the second hand market in Australia is practically non existent.

What appeal to me is the wider forks on them like the salsa, I'm wanting a middle footplate and the Q700R is a little narrow unless you shift the seating back like you did.

Problem is I think that will be too tippy for me especially to tilt being a c4/5 quad.

I don't want those crappy footrests as they look bad and also get in the way. Since getting used to a middle footplate I can't believe how better they are.

[Burgerman]

The Q500 and 700 both have the closer together castor wheels. That liits how far back the seat can go. Which is essentia or they dont steer. Dont worry about rearward stability. Its the opposite problem.

[Toro]

I'm not worried so much on driving stability, it's when I need to tilt

[Burgerman]

Thats no problem on mine. Even when sat with lift high up.