Net zero nonsense

[wheelchairer]

So you are right every dictatorship went bankrupt, but every democracy (and the dictatorships) who employed Keynes Ian economic policies between 1945 and 1972 saw success. The greatest and longest boom in catalyst history, and with a significant factor;
Was the period 1945 to 1972 extraordinary the extent of which there was 0 of very few bank collapses
ChatGPT said:
Yes, the period from 1945 to 1972 was extraordinary in that there were very few bank collapses, especially compared to other periods in modern financial history. This relative stability can be attributed to several key factors:

1. Strong Financial Regulation
The aftermath of the Great Depression led to strict banking regulations, particularly in the U.S. with the Glass-Steagall Act (1933), which separated commercial and investment banking and imposed limits on speculative activities.
In many countries, central banks played a more active role in supervising and stabilizing financial institutions.
2. The Bretton Woods System (1944–1971)
The post-war financial order was anchored by the Bretton Woods system, which pegged major currencies to the U.S. dollar, itself convertible to gold. This reduced exchange rate volatility and speculation, contributing to overall financial stability.
Countries maintained strict capital controls, limiting cross-border financial speculation and capital flight.
3. Economic Growth and Stability
This period, often called the "Golden Age of Capitalism," saw sustained economic growth, rising wages, and increased consumer spending.
The expansion of welfare states and government-backed deposit insurance systems (such as the FDIC in the U.S.) reduced the risk of bank runs.
4. Limited Financial Innovation
Compared to later decades, banks engaged in relatively straightforward lending activities (e.g., mortgages, business loans) and had fewer complex financial instruments.
Deregulation and financial liberalization, which contributed to instability in later decades, had not yet taken hold.
5. Government and Central Bank Interventions
When banks faced difficulties, governments often stepped in with direct support to prevent collapses.
The Federal Reserve and other central banks had more control over monetary policy without the pressures of globalized financial markets seen in later years.
The End of Stability (Post-1972)
The collapse of the Bretton Woods system in 1971-73 led to floating exchange rates, increased currency speculation, and greater financial uncertainty.
Financial deregulation in the late 1970s and 1980s (e.g., the repeal of Glass-Steagall in the U.S. in 1999) encouraged riskier banking practices.
The Savings and Loan Crisis (1980s-1990s) and later crises highlighted the risks of deregulation.
Conclusion
The period from 1945 to 1972 was indeed an exceptional era of banking stability due to strong regulation, government intervention, economic growth, and limited financial innovation. However, once deregulation and globalization took hold, financial crises became more frequent

Here is an experiment Capitalist ideologues versus Socialist ideologues [YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD9kEHvXlGQ&t=4s[/YouTube]

[wheelchairer]

Whilst many socialist, or any other, alternatives to the American model Have suffered at the hands of the American Empire.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +down+news

[wheelchairer]

Now don't get me wrong, I think I've already said elsewhere that capitalism is possibly the greatest idea humankind have ever had, when it comes to producing the necessities of human existence for reproduction (the 2 prime objectives). But as you have pointed out, it has created an "infestation" of humans. Which when you look every environmental metric does appear to be unsustainable. This isn't just science, and plain arithmetic. Humans and their livestock outnumber wild animals 11 to 1, and destroy carbon consumers at unprecedented levels. Extinction by our refusal to take our destiny into our own hands looks like an unsolvable problem for capitalism?

Capitalism is religion. It's the worship of "the unseen hand of the market" and profit. And whilst capitalism is fantastic at producing sustenance for human life through that profit motive, as the stock market investments people say "past results are not a predictor of future returns"?

Do you believe profit 1st will maintain this literal lifeboat upon which we sail round the sun?

[JohnnyUK]

It's a fascinating discussion where everyone has a different view of the same reality we all share ... life. Things happen during our lives that change our viewpoint and offer new perspectives, retirement has given me the opportunity to research topics I didn't have time for when I was working. It's been difficult to challenge some of my beliefs and keep an open mind on things that previously seemed ridiculous. When the 'new normal' started to be imposed in 2020 I became active resisting the state grab of our freedoms, this took me down lots of rabbit holes and turned me into the conspiracy nutjob I am today.

It makes me laugh when people tell me I'm wrong and that I'm reacting to some internet click bait. Quoting historical events does little to impress me, I don't believe much I can't witness or repeat myself. Can't remember who said these topics are best discussed face to face over a few pints but I agree, a forum seems the wrong place for complex discussions and takes too long to argue constructively. Whilst others may view me as a conspiracist nutjob I think they're the real nut jobs for not seeing through the lies when it seems glaringly obvious to me. Likewise there's a lot of things others believe in that I think are a massive lie, it's best not to challenge them unless you have a lot of time. I'd also justified the Moon Landings on the basis it involved too many people to keep any real conspiracies secret SO it must be true, to this day that is the only reason I can't be sure it was a scam

We seem to agree on the Climate Change nonsense so that's good, it's a convenient tool used by the WEF for imposing their tyranny. Capitalism has brought huge growth in Western living standards by encouraging entrepreneurs to prosper, since 2020 there's been a cull on small/medium private businesses in favour of Multinational Corporations. I worked in advanced manufacturing technology for Rolls Royce in the 80's & 90's, by 2000 most UK industry had been decimated much like the mines and textile industry most of mainline UK manufacturing seems to have died. The UK does nothing to add value to anything anymore, grow only 30% of our food and now have a stricken economy, etc,

The New World Order are in the midst of implementing their Stakeholder Capitalism system which is essentially a fascist arrangement designed to further enslave and impoverish the proles. Like most western sovereign nations we now have a government of occupation, there was a global coup in 2020 or is that still a conspiracy?? Many educated people don't see recent changes as a global threat because it would be illegal to do that and 'that sort of thing' never actually happens. But I fear it will happen if they choose to stick their heads in a bucket and wait while the dust settles

[Burgerman]

But as you have pointed out, it has created an "infestation" of humans. Which when you look every environmental metric does appear to be unsustainable.

Wrong. It is self regulating. It is only the poor that breed like rabits. Once the population become comfortable and dont want to breed 15 kids to "look after them" when they get old they stop breeding. In the rich west the levels of replacement humans is way below the level required. And capitalism, science, always provides better more efficient ways to feed people. As marxism did not...

This isn't just science, and plain arithmetic. Humans and their livestock outnumber wild animals 11 to 1, and destroy carbon consumers at unprecedented levels. Extinction by our refusal to take our destiny into our own hands looks like an unsolvable problem for capitalism?

Not sure where you get your figures from but 99.99% of all animals have already become extinct long before humans existed. We are just a product of that. Things "naturally" change over time. This part of history means we are the ones that outnumber the rest. As long as youu only look at mammals. Nature allowed us to outcompete the rest. So be it. Long after we are gone if we ever are something else will replace us as top dog. Or it wont. So what? Thats just the way it has turned out.

Capitalism is religion. It's the worship of "the unseen hand of the market" and profit. And whilst capitalism is fantastic at producing sustenance for human life through that profit motive, as the stock market investments people say "past results are not a predictor of future returns"?

No its not a religion. Its literally the freedome of humans to work, trade, employ, hire and fire at the market prices and to be allowed to keep the proceeds ofb our brains, work, investment etc. All a government should do is provide the things that support those that cant help themselves. And not interfere with anything else other than to guard and look after your rights to free trade, free speech, and safety.

Do you believe profit 1st will maintain this literal lifeboat upon which we sail round the sun?

Absolutely!

[Burgerman]

It's a fascinating discussion where everyone has a different view of the same reality we all share ... life. Things happen during our lives that change our viewpoint and offer new perspectives, retirement has given me the opportunity to research topics I didn't have time for when I was working. It's been difficult to challenge some of my beliefs and keep an open mind on things that previously seemed ridiculous. When the 'new normal' started to be imposed in 2020 I became active resisting the state grab of our freedoms, this took me down lots of rabbit holes and turned me into the conspiracy nutjob I am today.

Opinions, feelings, perspectives, etc are all irrelivant. reality, and facts are all that counts.
The only way to be a conspiracy theory nutjob is to not be able to understand the scientific method, unable to properly process logic and reason, and to believe garbage for bad reasons.

It makes me laugh when people tell me I'm wrong and that I'm reacting to some internet click bait. Quoting historical events does little to impress me, I don't believe much I can't witness or repeat myself. Can't remember who said these topics are best discussed face to face over a few pints but I agree, a forum seems the wrong place for complex discussions and takes too long to argue constructively.

If yur conspiracies take longer than a sentence or two to explain, and show the EVIDENCE that supports them then you dont have a valid argument and you also shouldnt believe them.

Whilst others may view me as a conspiracist nutjob I think they're the real nut jobs for not seeing through the lies when it seems glaringly obvious to me. Likewise there's a lot of things others believe in that I think are a massive lie, it's best not to challenge them unless you have a lot of time. I'd also justified the Moon Landings on the basis it involved too many people to keep any real conspiracies secret SO it must be true, to this day that is the only reason I can't be sure it was a scam

There are so many ways to show that this was real. That its a joke. You obvioiously have no idea of how physics, logic, or reasoning work.

We seem to agree on the Climate Change nonsense so that's good, it's a convenient tool used by the WEF for imposing their tyranny. Capitalism has brought huge growth in Western living standards by encouraging entrepreneurs to prosper, since 2020 there's been a cull on small/medium private bussi

Here we go again. Who did this cull??? I can tell you WHY it happened. Can you?

The New World Order are in the midst of implementing their Stakeholder Capitalism system which is essentially a fascist arrangement designed to further enslave and impoverish the proles.

So many claims and contradictions in one sentence with no evidence of any of it... It doesent make sense. Not even a bit of it.

Like most western sovereign nations we now have a government of occupation, there was a global coup in 2020 or is that still a conspiracy?? Many educated people don't see recent changes as a global threat because it would be illegal to do that and 'that sort of thing' never actually happens. But I fear it will happen if they choose to stick their heads in a bucket and wait while the dust settles

No idea what that lot meant.

[JohnnyUK]

Well there you go your just dismissing everything I said by stating that the 'facts' trump it all. I don't think there's such a thing as a 'fact' they're all based on values, beliefs and assertions about the truth. I've said before I know what I don't know and research what I do know as thoroughly as can. I'm interested in the truth. I've been educated/trained/worked in design and management of complex manufacturing systems, I'm perfectly capable of processing logic and reason.

Hasn't anybody else noticed the demise of small/medium UK businesses since 2020 or am I imagining it? I don't know who ordered the cull I expect it'll be the illuminati (Trilateral Commission, Club Of Rome, etc). Changes are coordinated and implemented by the UN/WHO/WEF as part of Agenda 2030. I can't state it's a fact but I've got irrefutable evidence to justify what I'm saying otherwise I wouldn't comment, of course it can't be reported online in the UK now free speech is policed/penalised ... or is that a conspiracy? All I do is try to raise awareness on controversial issues, I think I'm saving humanity and I've got nothing better to do. I'm not trying to wind people up although it's a typical reaction when challenging beliefs

[Burgerman]

Well there you go your just dismissing everything I said by stating that the 'facts' trump it all. I don't think there's such a thing as a 'fact' they're all based on values, beliefs and assertions about the truth.

No. A FACT is something that can be shown to be true, and your opinions, or values or assertions have absolutely no bearing on what is true. Facts are things that speak for themselveds, that can be independently shown to be correct or true beyong any sensible level of doubt. Like gravity is a fact. It may be incorrect, but it is as far as any sane person can tell real.
Thas why you fall for all this nonsense you are unable to apply reasoned logic or to balance the evidence. So you believe any old crap.

I've said before I know what I don't know and research what I do know as thoroughly as can. I'm interested in the truth. I've been educated/trained/worked in design and management of complex manufacturing systems, I'm perfectly capable of processing logic and reason.

Many of the claims and things you said in this thread alone show that this is quite obviously wrong! The fact that you cannot see that IS THE PROBLEM.

Hasn't anybody else noticed the demise of small/medium UK businesses since 2020 or am I imagining it?

No that is a FACT that can be demonstrated. And was completely predictable. We had decades of high levels of unneeded legislation and higher and higher taxation, ever increasing costs, more and more wage and employee rules and increases in minimum wages and paternity and many other expenses. Because the conservatives were basically turning into the liberal, pro EU, anti britain, globalist woke left wing green party which destroys business. Big business can afford lawyers and loves ever more complex legislation. So it bothers them less. No conspiracy, just plain politics and destruction through pure ignorance. Hence we now have a real conservative party again called reform.

I don't know who ordered the cull I expect it'll be the illuminati (Trilateral Commission, Club Of Rome, etc).

NOBODY ordered anything. You just jumped from some facts, which are easy to show to be true to some nonsense which again just shows that you are unable to balance bulshit, stories, internet youtube conspiracy with the FACTS of which there isnt any.
Its true that many polititians want all that globalist stuff. Theres no conspiracy there, they say this themselves. And when reform are voted in, as trump was, goodbye. Its just plain old politics. The left and the woke, and the marxists have been trying to get there way forever. The right, like me, will eventually convince enough of the sheeple to vote against the marxist globalist crap. No conspiracy nothing secret, no big plan just typical stupid politicians.

Changes are coordinated and implemented by the UN/WHO/WEF as part of Agenda 2030. I can't state it's a fact but I've got irrefutable evidence to justify what I'm saying otherwise I wouldn't comment, of course it can't be reported online in the UK now free speech is policed/penalised ... or is that a conspiracy?

Your idea of evidence is going to be laughable. I would like to be your irifutable is not the sort of thing that I would call evidence. We all know what the WEF etc would LIKE, as they state this themselves. We have politicians in power that agree. The stupids in scociety voted them in. But even the stupid people are waking up and they, like the consocialists before them are going to get a size 9 up them at the next erection.

All I do is try to raise awareness on controversial issues, I think I'm saving humanity and I've got nothing better to do. I'm not trying to wind people up although it's a typical reaction when challenging beliefs

The way to convince anyone is through simple EVIDENCE. Not by making endless claims that make you sound like a youtube conspiracy nut.
Words, stories, and other stuff is NOT evidence of anything other than you are delusional. The time to believe something is when you have REAL EVIDENCE. Not before.

[Burgerman]

Make one nutty claim at a time, state your EVIDENCE and let me reply.

You want to know why small business is struggling?
Easy.
1. Consequtive gov have run up the national debt to trillions. The interest on that - which buys not a single thing - has to be paid. That means we now have the highest taxation levels at any time in history. I run my household, and mY businesses in the past, in the black. Not the red. I buy what I can save and afford. Borrowing, loans, are the way to poverty and collapse. But polititians are stupid. This along with a crap load of other things mean small businesses cannot compete with overseas companies, or large companies that survive better because of economies of scale and because they are too big to fail.

2. In spite of this huge problem above we tax small businesses to death and anyone that earns enough to invest in business to death. And clobber them all with endless regulation, high minimum wages, (its now practically impossible to hire and actually fire anyone), so they are scared to employ people or expand businesses anyway.

3. We employ a more than a THIRD of the entire country employees as socialist style super inefficient civil servants that can be rude, lazy, on stupidly overpaid wages. And its practically unheard of that any of these will ever get fired. They roam around in groups, holding hands, fancy offices, doing meetings about meetings and filling in forms and "working" from home... The civil service doesent actually produce anything. Its just another ever growing drain. Wealth comes from the production of food, goods, services and from exports that bring wealth IN to the country not from pushing paper around. That means that for every two people working they are paying for a third one themselves in taxes... That makes them NON COMPETITIVE!

4. In spite of all the above we give away BILLIONS to countries like india who have their own Space agency... And literally hundreds of crazy overseas aid payments. Again business gets hammered for the highest taxes to cover that. And pay out billions in supporting literally 10 million rapeugees that have arrived in the last decade.

5. Businesses need FUEL. We have the most expensive fuel of any country in the world. That makes every small company NON COMPETITIVE... Even big ones shut down. We cannot manufacture anything in the UK competitively so we close everything down. And buy products in while sending all our wealth overseas...

6. Businesses are restricted by literally 1000s of rules that cover all sorts of nonsense that they have to comply with. Most of which stem from the EU rules that I voted against (and won) to DUMP. But the polititians love lagislation, EU etc so we still have to struggle to comply. That makes it almost impossible to comply with all the origin, green, and other rules and make goods with a fancy paper trail unless you are a big company with an army of lawyers.

7. On top of all of that the employers are forced to pay towards employees pensions, and towards their national insurance ON TOP behind the scenes, again making UK businesses uncompetitive.

Theres no conspiracy, no plan, just useless lefty socialistic biased & frankly incompetant idiots in charge. They would not be able to "plan" anything as they are just too thick. Have you ever questioned a politician? They truly are morons in the main.

[JohnnyUK]

I'm not sure I agree with your definition of 'fact', to me its not a fact if "it may be incorrect" with the caveat 'as far as any sane person can tell'.

Its not my definition. Its the ONLY definition.
A fact is something that due to the weight of evidence it would be somewhat ludicrous to disagree. The strength of any fact cant ever be 100% as you may be a brain running on a computer or something. Theres only so far you can go.
So a fact or something that is accepted as true is something that is demonstratably so, repeatably, by other people... A weak proposition or weak theory or an "idea" (conspiracy or otherwise is something that is not in that position. And the more outlandish and the more increadible that "fact" that you are claiming is the better that evidence has to be.
Example. I would accept you had a dog if you told me. People have dogs, and its not "increadible" and it doesent much matter if you lied. Nothing important changes.
If you told me you had a dog with 5 legs, I would WANT EVIDENCE of this claim.
If you told me it had 5 legs, was invisible, created the universe, and only you can see it, like a god claim, then that evidence better be pretty damned good.

As you can see, the level of conspiracy nonsense determines the level of evidence required to support your crazy.
So in your case almost all of these claims can be dismissed out of hand. WITHOUT STRONG EVIDENCE. If you dont see that, then YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND LOGIC. Meaning any reasoned discussion is not possible. And that your position is almost garanteed to be incorrect. One step away from the nut house.

I can appreciate that you think I'm wrong which makes for a challenging chat, one I wish I didn't get into as I can't win.

Heres your problem. If you CANT WIN, then YOU shouldnt be believing in it either. >> READ THAT MANY TIMES << Because you do not have adequate evidence. If you believe this stuff anyway you are simply incapable of logic or reasoning.

I have many claims. And I can DEMONSTRATE VERY CLEARLY exactly why every last one of my claims about anything is true using good evidence. In other words I can show you, a court, and anyone else at all that understands logic that I am correct.And it isnt a matter of opinion or feelings. Those dont count. If I cant do that then I wouldnt (couldnt) believe it either. But you do. And thats the problem with all conspiracy nuts. And thats why I know that you do not understand how logic, reason, the scientific method works. And that is the ONLY known path to the truth of anything.

I'll be brief here and try my best to stop chucking a salvo of conspiracies into the chat, yes it does make me sound like more of a mad man.

If you are believing ANYTHING without supporting evidence that would convince ME, then you are either mad. Brainwashed. Were never taught how to use logic, reasoning, the scientific method etc properly in which case you will believe any old crap that feels right "to you..." And you will be wrong.

It's not going to help if we argue of the semantics of what is and isn't a fact or who's right and who's wrong, I see this as an opportunity to offer different perspectives on shared concerns.

The semantics of what is a FACT absolutely matter! THERES YOUR PROBLEM IN A NUTSHELL. Who is right and wrong is determined only by the facts. The facts are not different for you, or me. And can be demonstrated to be correct or otherwise using evidence beyond reasonable doubt. If your FACTS are strong, then you may have an argument. But remember that just like that 5 legged dog claim you better have some very strong evidence to support your claim that I cannot refute. And any single fact that shows the opposite sinks your conspiracy. Or you would be a mentalist to "believe" them.

I agree with you on so many issues concerning green energy, net zero, socialist influences, and more. I'm also delighted that you think the consocialists will get kicked out at the next election and agree Reform policies are more in line with my anti globalist thinking. I'm not sure if something better manages to replace the rot it'll have the teeth to change direction.

But you likely believe for the wrong reasons. You think theres some big conspiracy.

And evidence to show it IS possible to deal with it exists now. Look at trump.
He has already dumped net zero paris accord. The WEF. The drill baby drill. World health Org, etc. And has banned woke nonsense and declared no weirdo sexualities in any governmemt institutions and fired thousands. And has started deporting illegal migrants instantly and shut the borders. And is firing complete government quangos and departments. Banned work from home, all in a couple of weeks. The left is going mental! And its fun to watch. Thats the EVIDENCE that shown that its possible to go against the media, the left, the woke, etc. And he keeps on doing more and more. So we know that is can be done.

[Burgerman]

You ask me for 'evidence' but I don't know what you would find acceptable,

Simple. If it wouldnt convince ANYONE that understands logic, its useless. So a lot of claims, talk, and stuff that cannot BE DEMONSTRATED by others is nonsense. There may even be some parts of it that are true. Like the bible! That doesent make it all true. Facts stand on their own. That guy in your vid was all conspiracy talk and no facts. In other words it was all nonsense.

In order to identify your facts on global politics where do you get your news/data? There's a huge disparity in opinions between legacy media and the newer 'alternative' online news platforms which are almost the polar opposites.

You are going to need to identify EXACTLY WHICH FACT we are tallking about INDIVIDUALLY. I take nothing on face value.

I don't believe much but choose to follow UK Column news for their professional well evidenced journalism on taboo topics,

You are doing it again! You shouldnt "follow" anyone or any channel or any thing at all. You should look at the facts not political ;leaning and work out wjats true yourself.

this is my main source of news on the issues discussed here. For example yesterday UKC included a segment on Climate Change, energy and changing governmental structures in the quest for Agenda 2030. I

Thats politics not facts. There may be some facts in there, and those need to be but into context BY YOU and checked. And the difference is that they will be cherry picking from true data to support their political views. Thats not sciense, some may be true, all of it will be biased as much by the way it is portrayed and by what they do not say. So you need to learn to use logic, reason, with the actual facts that you do know to put all of that into context.

t's a strategic view of what's going on in the UK with renewable energy, problems with generation and the expansion of devolved councils to do the dirty work of Whitehall. Ok it may not be irrefutable evidence but Sandi Adams is a well researched lady who tells the truth as she finds it, again I can't explain it better than she does ... from 15:25 (refs in show notes same page) ... https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/uk-colum ... ruary-2025

I dont care what she thinks. Thats opinion and its all biased depending on her leanings. I can pich a few facts from it, and I can check out some of her claims. And there may be some new information to consider. I need to understand a MUCH WIDER context and the real facts in order to place all the information.
For e.g the earths real climate history, the sheer cost of doing the net zero and the actual effect it will have on the climate and the economy. Those things are MY internal mental calculations and how I put all this into a much bigger picture.

[JohnnyUK]

I think most of this disagreement is down to where we get our truth from, who we choose as the arbiters of unbiased reporting and analysis. The BBC and Fact Checkers have taken the place of evidenced reporting in polite society, BBC Verify is a laughable example of government fuelled propaganda who are there to silence dissenting voices. I would definitely have the evidence to support my 5 legged dog claim in the form of videos, photos and medical reports. I haven't got any evidence of gravity, it may or not be true but admit it works well in scientific calculations and that's all that matters to most mortals, it feels like I can see it for myself but the other hypothesis' are interesting.

I can only see historical records about going to the Moon, I was mesmerised as a kid it was inspirational but have a few niggling doubts now. I've only ever seen one photo of the full Earth from Space other than the infamous CGI blue marble so I can't verify anything I have to believe NASA, there must have been some good shots possible when on the Moon. Seems odd to have no photos of Earth when so many people have been to Space even in recent years. NASA now say they can't go back to Moon because they've they've lost the drawings ... well that's what I read. I wish I could check if the Moon was 240,00 miles away and the Sun 93 million miles away yet their sizes match during an eclipse, is that a coincidence? Space raises so many questions for me and I can see you follow the likes of Space X with great interest, must admit those boomerang Falcoln boosters returning to base are a sight to behold looks like Thunderbirds ... incredible tech!

[JohnnyUK]

And evidence to show it IS possible to deal with it exists now. Look at trump.
He has already dumped net zero paris accord. The WEF. The drill baby drill. World health Org, etc. And has banned woke nonsense and declared no weirdo sexualities in any governmemt institutions and fired thousands. And has started deporting illegal migrants instantly and shut the borders. And is firing complete government quangos and departments. Banned work from home, all in a couple of weeks. The left is going mental! And its fun to watch. Thats the EVIDENCE that shown that its possible to go against the media, the left, the woke, etc. And he keeps on doing more and more. So we know that is can be done.

It's almost too good to be true there's so many good things happening that involve breaking up the Deep State and he seems to be having a go. Both Trump and Musk are anti-Starmer so that'll call him out over the coming months, RFK Jr looks set to expose big pharma and sort out healthcare. Elon's DOGE start up was a well managed hit job which was impressive. But then there's Operation Stargate which is proving worrysome for many people, I thought they'd finished using mRNA on the general public. But chucking out the woke transgender net zero economy destroying ethos is refreshing to see, yes drill baby drill. Hope Reform can take over in the UK and take back control for the electorate.

I'm hoping Trump follows through on his pledges and puts a halt to the globalist ambitions

[Burgerman]

I can only see historical records about going to the Moon,

What else were you expecting??? It was half a century ago.

I was mesmerised as a kid it was inspirational but have a few niggling doubts now. I've only ever seen one photo of the full Earth from Space other than the infamous CGI blue marble

Theres loads. Not only that but I was looking at pictures of that blue marble LONG BEFORE CGI existed. So again nonsense conspiracy stuff.

so I can't verify anything I have to believe NASA,

No you dont. It was monitored and tracked live by hundreds of dishes in 100s of countries live as it was happening, and you choose to ignore a mountain of evidence and to support your own nagging "feelings". Well feelings are irrelivant.

there must have been some good shots possible when on the Moon. Seems odd to have no photos of Earth when so many people have been to Space even in recent years.

Theres literlaaly millions. What are you smoking?

NASA now say they can't go back to Moon because they've they've lost the drawings ... well that's what I read.

Nonsense! Yes in half a century with no computer storage I am not surprised they lost a few drawings. Considering the sheer size of the operation and number of companies involved and tens of thousands of such employees and drawings. That they absolutely do not need to go back to the moon! Hell they have been landing probes and cars on other planets for 60 years. And still are. What nonsense. Read better stuff.

I wish I could check if the Moon was 240,00 miles away and the Sun 93 million miles away yet their sizes match during an eclipse, is that a coincidence? Space raises so many questions for me

Its a coincidence. And its not even true. Its a few percent wrong.
And you CAN check. Many ways. Inc using guess what?

And its not an exact size match either just similar, but worse the orbits are not exactly circular, far from it in fact and so the "match" (that isnt anyway), varies considerably depending where in the sun or moon orbits we hapen to be!

Sorry but thats the "argument from ignorance fallacy". Same one as the "I dont know how it all happened so god did it". But in this case its just "I dont know how (or even have the correct FACTS!!!) and so conspiracy nonsense kicks in" version like most of your arguments.

[Burgerman]

So keep postingyour conspiracy stuff one at a time WITH YOUR BEST EVIDENCE and I will agree if its valid. And sink them without trace when its wrong.

Conspiracy nonsense meets actual logic and evidence = a shipwreck every time. I think much of this nonsense comes about because many are never taught the critical thinking skills required to understand how to sort reality from bullshittery. The problem is then the same lack of critical thinking prevents them or you from dumping the conspiracy, when a fact shows it to be wrong. Then starts the "secret" conspiracy, governments hiding stuff etc...

In science any single prediction, any one repeatable fact discovered, any experiment that gives a different result to what was expected means that the theory in question is wrong. Dead. After 100 years of relativity and endless predictions tested to death it always works. If however one single experiment gave a different result, an incorrect prediction, thats it. Its thrown out. That proves it wasnt correct. And we are almost at this point with relativity and with quantum physics. And thats great! It opens the door for a better theory or points to a different more accrate model.

Conspiracy theorists dont work that way. They just do what religionists do and make up ever more complex nonsense to try and prove their case. But its already too late. The fact that they have inadequate critical thinking skills means that they or you cant see this.

[Burgerman]

THIS is about why complex science is political, why many experts are on the bandwagon. In this case partical physics. But exactly the same applies to all physics or other researchers. Throw money at scientists, researchers, the IPCC and they will find links from anything to anything... This is the very same thing that has happened with global warming net zero nonsense.

Watch carefully.


youtu.be/shFUDPqVmTg

[JohnnyUK]

Apologies for slow response I've been out of the loop for a few days. I won't waste anymore time responding to this discussion as you think I'm an idiot with no ability to process logic or reason. My thoughts are not of interest to other forum users so it's better to stick to chairs & WAV's where I have a lot of respect for your opinions.

THIS is about why complex science is political, why many experts are on the bandwagon. In this case partical physics. But exactly the same applies to all physics or other researchers. Throw money at scientists, researchers, the IPCC and they will find links from anything to anything... This is the very same thing that has happened with global warming net zero nonsense.

Watch carefully.

Yes I did watch it and agree with her analysis, what did you think I'd take exception to? Scientific 'evidence' can't be trusted, if you want to check data integrity follow the money. You can't identify the truth using reason and logic without relying on data or analysis of that data from elsewhere, you can't derive everything from base principles there isn't enough time. It would seem we choose to trust different sources for our information, you didn't say where you get your 'news' from. Some seem content to trust AI as the future arbiter of truth as it addressing more variables than a human brain (not mine) can process, they don't ask who controls the algorithms.

As far as Space, The Moon landings and other NASA nonsense are concerned we're better off continuing to follow our own belief systems. The gap in our beliefs is too wide to bridge.

I'm surprised and delighted that Trump is following through on his promises and is exposing the Deep State corruption. Indeed many of the Executive Orders address issues that were up until recently seen as conspiracies. A man on the street said "the difference between a conspiracy and the truth is approx 6 months". And "one man's Dis/Mis/Malinformation is another man's Information" we as individuals, not the State, are the arbiters.

[Burgerman]

As far as Space, The Moon landings and other NASA nonsense are concerned we're better off continuing to follow our own belief systems. The gap in our beliefs is too wide to bridge.

Once the evidence shows a thing is correct or true then no "belief" is required. This applies to everything. The level of your confidence that a claim is likely true depends on its importance, and on how fantastical that claim may be. Then you will mentally assign it a probability of being right. Or not.

I dont have or need any "belief".

Belief is the word used when there is inadequate or no evidence that supports the claim... Thats why we have the religous "believers" and not science or engineering "believers". Would you fly on a plane designed by a believer or an engineer? And THAT is the exact difference between you and me. Its true that anything at all CAN be some conspiracy. 99% of things turn out not to be. The time to believe that any of these things have any merit - its likely validity % at all is when the weight of the evidence shows that it is likely to be so/true. Or you would go off believing in every daft nonsense claim that you find some nut job talking about on the weird corner of the internet. And apparently thats exactly what you are doing!

I dont blame you. Most people think and perform badly when it comes to critical thinking skills. And they get mad when its pointed out. You need to learn how to evaluate claims properly using your obviously missing skills. If you were rational, you SHOULD be sceptical of EVERY claim until shown that they are true. The responsibility of meeting this level of evidence or proof, is the responsibility of those making the claim. So:

Moon landings. What do you "believe" and the important part, WHY?

[JohnnyUK]

It's the data/evidence I'm suspicious of more so than the analysis.

Moon landings. What do you "believe" and the important part, WHY?

I can't get half way to the Moon without suspicion, how did a human being withstand the G forces, the Van Allen Belt and the constant vacuum ripping away at everything? It's back to the space suit question which asked I requested we limit our philosophical adventures to, how do you supplement human life support in a vacuum? How does a spacecraft survive a vacuum if it's close to atmospheric pressure inside? We don't know much about vacuum's other than they're difficult to produce and even then only a partial vacuum is achievable. Apparently Space has just a few (?) hydrogen atoms per cubic metre, so it's not a total vacuum but as near as you can practically get to one.

My skills of logic and sound reasoning lead me to believe 'Man in Space' is bs. A living animal can't go to Space and come back alive if there isn't a life support system that would allow it. Please explain how that magic spacesuit works

[Burgerman]

I can't get half way to the Moon without suspicion, how did a human being withstand the G forces,

The G forces are almost exactly the same as I stood most weekends doing simple 3 and 4G tight turns in a sailplane while younger. And considerably less than fighter pilots stand every day. Logic? Physics...

the Van Allen Belt and the constant vacuum ripping away at everything?

The van allen belt is radiation. Radiation effects are cumalative. So simply passing through a narrow band at high speed is not a problem at all. Not much different than a bunch of xrays. Not remotely an issue. Logic again. Lack of understanding? Learn some physics!!!

Vaccuum? We are talking about around 6 or 7psi only here. Why? Because while 1 atmosphere is 14.7psi, humans dont need that. When you fly on an arplane that internal pressure is also dropped well below sea level pressure, to the 8,000ft equivelent. So the inside of the plane is experiencing around the same pressure differential at 37k feet as the moon mission or a spacesuit. A very low pressure difference. Yet airplanes dont have a problem right? One reason they do that isnt because a suit cant stand a full 14psi as thats not a lot. Its because movement is less restricted at lower pressures. Humans are fine at even 4 or 5psi as long as extra oxygen is added. So again not only isnt is an issue, its no different to what an airliner does daily as far as standing up to the pressure differential is concerned. Logic, physics again. If you dont understand it then its all magic right?

It's back to the space suit question which asked I requested we limit our philosophical adventures to, how do you supplement human life support in a vacuum? How does a spacecraft survive a vacuum if it's close to atmospheric pressure inside? We don't know much about vacuum's other than they're difficult to produce and even then only a partial vacuum is achievable. Apparently Space has just a few (?) hydrogen atoms per cubic metre, so it's not a total vacuum but as near as you can practically get to one.

We can, and you can make a 99.9% vaccuum at home. Its literally the absense of air. Put your finger over the end of a syringe, and pull out the plunger. Then you have a almost complete vaccuum, and outside of that is the 14.7psi of atmosphere. What is so increadible about that. If a spacecraft was at 50psi or 180 like a propane bottle its still not a problem! But its at around 8...

Or what actually matters here is pressure DIFFERENTIAL. So if you put a miserable 14psi into a tyre, thats exactly the same as putting 14psi into a metal spaceship on the ground. Its nothing. Whats more, they dont even bother with 14psi, they use MUCH less as they do in an airplane. In a airliner your ears pop as they allow the pressure to drop inside the plane to 8k feet level.

My skills of logic and sound reasoning lead me to believe 'Man in Space' is bs.

But that shows you dont understand it. You show that your skills are missing and dont understand what logic means. If I were to take an old metal oil tank, add a door. With a seal. Fill it with air at ground level, (0psi) and put it in space with you in it you would be fine. It would still be full of air. You would be happy. The difference between inside and out would be 14.7psi. It wouldnt care either.
It would easily stand 1 atmosphere. Theres literally nothing complicated about it. I suppose a submarine that goes down under the water where we are not talking about 14psi, or 6 or 8 psi but thousands of atmospheres difference can't work either...

A living animal can't go to Space and come back alive if there isn't a life support system that would allow it. Please explain how that magic spacesuit works

Same as that metal oil tank box. It holds the air and you.
So very well!
All you need is a flimsy vessel that is basically airtight with a man inside. And add air, or oxygen. At a lower pressure than on earth so that it can be easier to move at its joints. Thats literally all thats needed. What did you expect that would be required? That is all that was used recently on musks mission with jarred isaccson on the first simple private company spacewalk. Where they opened up the hatch and the whole ship was at vaccuum in as well as out so the other three just sat there in a vaccuum and waited. A few PSI isnt an issue! Nasa's early suits also had water pipes to maintain an even temperature but the short term use ones used by spacex dont even need that.
Your lack of physics understanding absolutely astounds me. Ignorance breeds all sorts of nonsense.

You obviously read all the conspiracy nonsense and didnt look at the physics. To me who has a good grasp of physics, it is super easy to understand.

[JohnnyUK]

I didn't know airlines routinely drop cabin pressure to 8psi without any ill effects other than ear popping. If you say dropping the effect of dropping the other 6 psi is linear then I would have to accept your explanation of why the pressure differential isn't an issue in Space. I assumed the force exerted by an almost perfect vacuum would tear apart anything with gas pockets in it, that the stresses would rise exponentially as pressure approaches zero. You say I'm wrong, fair enough thank you for explaining

[Burgerman]

14.7 psi would barely tear a crisp packet apart as that would be what was inside it in a vaccuum. (It would though, a crisp packet isnt quite strong enough). But anything a little bit stronger would just float around quite happily being gradually attracted to anything of mass. E=mc squared... But space isnt a perfect vaccuum anyway.

The further you get from earth, the thinner the atmosphere gets. A ground level the stall speed of an airliner may be 120mph so it safely lands at 140 to 150.
At 40k feet the stall speed of an aircraft is basically full speed, and fly slower than that and it drops out of the sky - too high, not enough power and you reach whats known as coffin corner.

At 80k feet the plane cant fly unless its an sr71 going at crazy speed of 3.3x the speed of sound. And thats considered the "edge of space" but really there isnt isnt one. Even at much much higher altitudes, where the geostationary sattelites are at, a HUGE 26.000 miles above the equator. They still need a periodic boost so as to stay in that altitudes orbit. They hit air and dust molecules.

The difference between an SR71 at 100k feet, at max speed/stall and a geostationary satellite at 26,000 miles up is about 1 psi... Hardly any different.
If you go out of the solar system completely the presure is still practically zero. But theres still some dust, and gasses. No perfect vaccuum even in space. If there was then its not "tearing" at anything, its not a lot difference to the SR71 as far as forces are concerned. 1 or 2 psi at SR71 height? 0 psi in outer space.

Air pressure at the SR71 85,000 feet is 10kpa compared to 100kPa at ground level. So about 1psi or less. So outer space is just 1psi less...
And a human can survive a few secs at vaccuum without doing the eyes popping out or exploding like the movies portray without damage too. It would hurt. And you couldnt breathe. But you would probably be OK.

[Burgerman]

I assumed the force exerted by an almost perfect vacuum would tear apart anything with gas pockets in it, that the stresses would rise exponentially as pressure approaches zero

You know what an assumption is? Its the mother of all fuckups.

This is what I mean by ignoring ignorant conspiracy nuts, and using physics, logic, reason. Which is where you failed. As I said you must learn to do so. Or always end up with some false understanding.

Quite apart from getting exponential (as COMPRESSING air does) it does the opposite. The lack of pressure becomes less and less "powerful" less forces the closer you get to a vaccuum v altitude. Note the curve.
This is because our airs pressure at sea level is around 104mpa (14.7psi) caused by gravity. Air is attracted to earth. (actually thats not a force but its easier to explain that way as you wont understand E=MC2...)
The higher you go, the less air there is sat on top of you. So the lower the pressure.

At 14,000 meters, see chart. Its about 14mpa or 10x lower than sea level... So not 14.7psi but around 7x less.
Thats at 47,000 feet... Do pressurised planes explode? Look at that curve. At the right of the graph its 47k feet. And practically same pressure as space. That like never ever actually reaches zero. No matter how high you go.

[JohnnyUK]

That's a great explanation, I accept my 'sound reasoning' wasn't so sound. It's one of those issues I've mused about but never see any discussion on, the same as I muse about why I can't see curvature on the horizon or the eclipse phenomenon mentioned earlier. I don't know the answer to any of these issues and don't have sufficient curiosity to investigate, I'll just ask you next time.

Meanwhile I'll stick to learning about wheelchairs and WAV's, apologies to members who wanted to follow Net Zero discussions in this thread

[wheelchairer]

That's a very good post. As a Marxist agree with it all. Except, there aren't any Marxists with much influence. Name a Marxist with as much influence as Putin, Trump, or even Starmer. I don't think you can.

And I will say it again, the scientific method, no such thing as free will, systemic analysis, you agree more with Marxists than you disagree with them, as a 'scientist'.

All the marxist/socialists went bankrup over the last 130 year experiment. After starving to death 20 million across the soviet union and at LEAST 100 million across china they all decided that it doesent work... Carl marx was a moron.

So there is no Marxist influence, Or can you name somebody? Today there Isn't anybody remotely Marxist in any position of influence, agreed?

They were not Marxist. Already gone through what is clearly written by Karl Marx. Commune-ism Is a completely different structure, a democratic structure, based upon working-class people controlling those who organise their efforts in the workplace democratically, and so with society. Now you can criticise this fairly, but you can't really describe state capitalist dictatorship as communes/Communist by Karl Marx definition, and more importantly his goal, and the goal of Marxists.

Still haven't answered this point you. You saying you labour are Marxist? Seriously

[Burgerman]

Yes. I dont know how its possible to think otherwise.
Labour want equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. They HATE anyone that has more than they do, they hate capitalism. They hate people that are successful.

From the dictionary: https://www.yourdictionary.com/articles ... definition

Marxism vs. Communism vs. Socialism

Communism and socialism are both types of governments or theoretical governments born from Marxism. However, they vary in slightly different ways.
Marxism: Communism

At its core, communism opposes capitalism. In an effort to get rid of capitalism, communist governments, in theory, pay workers according to their ability and needs and remove capitalists by having a strong central government own all property publicly. One example of a current communist government is China.

Marxism: Socialism

Much like communism, socialism is a system of politics and economics with roots in Marxist ideals. In socialism, a central government owns all means of wealth, but individuals can still own property. Additionally, unlike the violent uprisings that can arise with communism, socialism typically occurs more organically through reforms and changes with an elected government.

Marxist Theory Defined

At its center, Marxism was a theory created by Marx and Engels to create a classless society where workers were appreciated and worked to benefit the common good. While the true theory has never reached fruition, a few governments have tried through communism and socialism.

Does that help? All are just different sides of the same backside.
That is exactly what I see, and its all exactly the opposite to the one thing that creates a rich society. Free market capitalism. Which all the labour party hate. Since we had a century and a half where this stuff was tested to death quite literally and we now all know that it fails every time, they cant push it as what it is. So they all now adopt anything that requires centralised control, control over the individual, such as the new crap, global warming, enviromentalism, black lives matter, woke ideology etc etc etc. instead. And they want to have everything owned by the people, the government and do this by nationalising industries so that they become completely useless and inneficient. More marxism.

Now I am not interested in having a word masturbation session which is philodsophy as I find it totally pointless. We all know exactly what te above is and means. Cant stand philosophy is is the most useless pointless subject that hasnt achieved a thing in centuries.

[Burgerman]

Nasa / wikipedia:

Generally, to supply enough oxygen for respiration, a space suit using pure oxygen must have a pressure of about 32.4 kPa (240 Torr; 4.7 psi),

Under 5psi needed in a suit. And in a spaceship they use a little more and thats around 6 to 7 psi. So no need for pure oxygen.

[Burgerman]

More stuff that logic will show you.

Every time a diver decends 33 feet, which is not much, the pressure he normally feels at the surface of 14.7psi doubles.
At 66 feet, thats 4x the pressure. Easy maths? Thats 60 psi...
At 99 feet thats doubled again... Now 120psi. Does he care?
Not really.

Since divers have been down to 2200 feet below the surface while breathing different air mixtures. Do they collapse under the pressure?
No. They dont even feel any pressure. Its not the actual pressure its the change of pressure. As the pressure increases then your own body is made of water, pushes back. You neither expand or compress. And are unaware.

If you were made of air, then you would be compressed down to a miniature human. Like a balloon at depths. But you are not!
How do you suppose fish survive at the bottom of the mariana trench at many thousands of PSI? 36 thousand feet below the surface. 15,750 psi... A 1000+ atmospheres! They are made of the same stuff as a diver. Its only a sudden change of pressure that matters. The fish doesent fel squashed!
In a vaccum, just 14psi less than the surface your fluids will release some gasses and that wouldnt be great for you. Air bubbles in your bloodstream may cause the equivelent to a diver surfacing too fast. But you woudnt explode or anything dramatic. Just like you cant tell the pressure in an airplane was reduced to that of the 8000 feet point. A few thought experiments and a little logic goes a long way.

[wheelchairer]

THIS is about why complex science is political, why many experts are on the bandwagon. In this case partical physics. But exactly the same applies to all physics or other researchers. Throw money at scientists, researchers, the IPCC and they will find links from anything to anything... This is the very same thing that has happened with global warming net zero nonsense.

Watch carefully.


youtu.be/shFUDPqVmTg

This is the problem with ageing capitalism? She said "the Chinese are laughing at us"? Why are so many countries most notably China getting science and education system right, and the most hardened Liberal Economic (Reaganism) countries, the US UK, cannot even build decent roads, or an education system,,, lately? What happened? (1)

Never used to be such a problem, in fact The UK lead the world. Also led the world with social investment beginning at the end of the 19th century. The UK and US Won the Second World War By lurching towards state capitalism (State direction of Economic investment and Social Investment) Total War. And the continuation of this policy after the Second World War creating the longest and largest economic boom in capitalist history, with the fewest number of bank crashes (wealthy Ponzi schemes)? The reintroduction of Economic Liberalism has seen asset stripping countries (look at the forking state of the roads) to fund tax cuts to the already rich, making the people poorer generation on generation so they no longer have the freedom to buy property because there is no trickle down, and the rich are buying it all. And on the other hand we now have the Chinese state capitalism being the most dynamic workshop of the world, using a slightly watered down version of State direction of capital and social investment.
While the clowns in the White House offer the people recreating the tariff/isolationism/depression/war conditions of the nineteen thirties. Just to feed the egos of psychopathic welfare queens like Elon Mosque. But look who also benefits, who would have guessed it , the military-industrial complex, the sole intellectual/industrial in which still has hegemony, war.2

They are literally blowing up the livelihoods of the people, to create a economic genocide/cleansing by wealth distinction.

However, the reason the education system is bollocks, is because of the right. Thatcherites made the education systems 1 of their prime objectives in the early years. Along with the NHS, and look where that story ends, Thatcherites introduced the internal market. So Thatcherism has basically achieved state capitalism, beyond education. I saw my local hospital growth from 2 managers for 3000 workers, 125 managers, and a whole bureaucracy managing the internal market. And it's achieved it in education where the political paymasters pretend to want the truth, so the workers pretend to give it them. All the education system is skewed to the Thatcherite demand of government targets. Thatcherism and Reaganism is why education is screwed. We traded for 3 independent thinkers, for number bots.

If the Tariff Terrorists listen to the scientist they would know this about American oil. Or is Donald Trump ANOTHER mentally impaired president the democratic (vote for the candidate the billionaires choose) free world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmt5D9vOoVU




1. What do you think of Henry Fords influence on US transportation policy bias?

2. Don't you find it strange we keep getting presidents with mental impairments like Donald, Bill Biden, George Bush the 2nd, Ronald Reagan, sex addict. It's almost like somebody else is running the show? The grand alliance oil and the military?
Yes, the United States spends more on its military than the next several countries combined. As of recent data (2023 estimates from SIPRI – Stockholm International Peace Research Institute), the U.S. defense budget was around $877 billion, which is more than the combined military spending of the next 10 countries.

Here’s a rough comparison of the top military spenders in 2023:

United States – $877 billion
China – $292 billion
Russia – $86.4 billion
India – $81.4 billion
Saudi Arabia – $75 billion
United Kingdom – $68.5 billion
Germany – $55.8 billion
The U.S. alone accounts for about 40% of global military spending. So, it's not just more than the next six countries combined—it exceeds the next 10 in many years.

Would you like a more detailed breakdown?

[Burgerman]

I replied in detail and lost it. Most of that is nonsense.

Summary. China poorest place on earth through socialist economics and central planning via a totalitarian communist gov managed to stop starving a literal 100 million to death, and stop them eating dead babies (seriously) amongst other grotesqe things to live by watching the free market HK become ever richer than the whole of mainland china with zero resources. Many in china walked/crawled thousands of miles to get into hong kong. So the anti capitalist communists held their noses, looked the opposite way and allowed a small fishing viliage called shenzen to do its own thing. To hire, fire, keep any profit, allow the entrapreneurs to get rich, create products, food, factories, etc and keep the revenue etc. It became the richest place in china, it generated wealth. The whole population now had jobs, able to eat, food on shelves. There WERE no jobs or shelves before! THIS is how wealth "trickes down" as you like to put it.

70 years later the rest is history. The rise of china. Now the 2nd richest country on the planet, that has the money to LOOK AFTER THE POOREST in society to a much higher degree than ever before. Since free market unrestricted almost tax free capitalism they had allowed did what it always does. It lifted the vast majority out of abject poverty and improved their lives, lifespan, health, and lives generally by an immesurable amount. The "musks" of china caused that.

The west gets ever poorer for the opposite reasons. Ever greater rules, endless never ending restrictions laws, and regulation by governments and centralised controls, centralised planning, globalism, way too high taxes on the rich and on business preventing many to rise in the same way musk has done and so driving all the wealth and wealth creationist entrapreneurs and investment to places like china. And on top, net zero nonsense is bankrupting us, etc.

TRUMP will make the US rich again if the woke, the left, the institutions, lefty lawyers, courts, media allow it. If not you and we are all screwed. It took 70 years in china. It may take that long again if the signals are there and they stay that way. Before the businesses begin, return, expand, become competitive etc. Just keep the damned socialist/left away from everything. And things will return. Or you will end up in the US (and here) like venuzuala, or china 70 years ago, or cuba etc. Like any of the other 3? is it? remaining socialist economies that have still not completely collapsed.