Permobil F5 vs F3

[Rye]

What's the difference between the Permobil F5 and the F3? The specs are pretty close.

[Burgerman]

2 pole v 4 pole, and a few other small things that I dont know. Makes you wonder why they dont have 1 chair. Or explain the difference.

More:

Chair Permobil, F3---Permobil F5
Drive Type, Front-Wheel---Front-Wheel
Width (including seat), 420-570 mm---420-570 mm
Range, 30 km*---35 km*
Speed, 10 km/h---12 km/h

Obstacle climbing?, Yes 60 / 75 mm---70 / 80 mm
Turning Radius (ISO 7176-5), 673mm---762mm
Weight Limit, 150 kg---136 kg (the seat lift may be higher on the F5?)
The F5 is longer

[Rye]

I saw the F5 does have 2" higher seat lift, a little faster speed and that it was longer, but not much else. I assumed the F5 was for "heavy set" users, but the USA Permobil website has the same user weight limit for both (330lbs). Unless it's a mistake on the website. I assume the F5 probably costs more. Both are for sure over priced. On all the Ebay listings for these chairs all sellers state the original prices: $40,000, $50,000, etc. I guess it does make it look like you're getting a good deal at their $1500 dollar price.

I wonder if they change things in the chairs based on in which countries they are being sold.

[Rye]

I know when I got my magic mobility v6 I was told it would be a 120A power module, but when the chair arrived I had them open it up and it only had a 80A. I told them I wouldn't accept it without the 120A. Then I was told by the rep that they only come with the 80A. So I again said I wouldn't accept it without a 120A. They did install the 120A finally, but they changed the programming to only be 80A. However, thanks to this website and my programmer, I was able to fix that.

I see on the CW website that the 120A is the standard module now. I can't even find the 80A on the site anymore.

[Raro]

The F5 is longer and wider.
It can reach speeds of 12 km/h. The F3 can reach speeds of up to 10 km/h.
It has oil-filled shock absorbers.
You can opt for the foot function. I don't recall any other differences...
Well, yes, the price is higher for the F5.
I also don't quite understand why it's so high in the United States. I've seen bills for $60,000, while in Europe it can be purchased for €30,000.

[Rye]

The F5 is longer and wider.
It can reach speeds of 12 km/h. The F3 can reach speeds of up to 10 km/h.
It has oil-filled shock absorbers.
You can opt for the foot function. I don't recall any other differences...
Well, yes, the price is higher for the F5.
I also don't quite understand why it's so high in the United States. I've seen bills for $60,000, while in Europe it can be purchased for €30,000.

My provider told me he sold one for $80,000 once with all the bells and whistles. I have a 20% copayment so I could by a new one on ebay for less than the copayment and not have to go through all the middle men.

[Burgerman]

https://www.lifestyleandmobility.co.uk/ ... owerchair/
F3 £7300
F5 £9300
Starting price. Will end up more.

Why US prices crazy? Because all the legislation, regulation, and insurance has destroyed the free capitalist market model that drives quality and choice up, and prices down. Its called "corporatism" crony capitalism, or just corruption. And an engineered legalised way to have a bug stick shoved up your bum and they are wiggling it about.

[LROBBINS]

My provider told me he sold one for $80,000 once with all the bells and whistles. I have a 20% copayment so I could by a new one on ebay for less than the copayment and not have to go through all the middle men.

There's the key to U.S. pricing. The insurance co. doesn't pay anywhere near the list price. Indeed they may only pay 20%-40% of the list price, but you have a copay of 20% of list. In the end the insurance company pays very little, or even nothing at all. This is not socialism, but semi-monopoly capitalism. Of course it's not a classic monopoly because there's more than one insurer, but there's nothing that prevents them from quietly agreeing to screw you.

[Raro]

]
There's the key to U.S. pricing. The insurance co. doesn't pay anywhere near the list price. Indeed they may only pay 20%-40% of the list price, but you have a copay of 20% of list. In the end the insurance company pays very little, or even nothing at all. This is not socialism, but semi-monopoly capitalism. Of course it's not a classic monopoly because there's more than one insurer, but there's nothing that prevents them from quietly agreeing to screw you.

Basically, you don't have healthcare; you have to pay for it out of your own pocket. I recently saw a complaint from oncologists in private healthcare here in Spain who are being pressured by insurance companies to deny certain expensive treatments. Anyone who wants them will be referred to public healthcare, which we don't give the appreciation it deserves.

[rover220]

f5 has a larger footprint, 50mm higher seat lft, higher top speed, bigger batteries, better suspension system.

that is based on UK specs, ROW may be different.

[swalker]

The F5 looks a lot like the F3, but there are substantial differences.

• The F5 is more stable than the F3.
• The F5 is faster than the F3.
• The F5 takes group 24 batteries. The F3 takes either Group 34 or Group 24 batteries. The F3 is often provided with the group 34 batteries, so has less range.
• The F5 seems to have more torque than the F3.

I received a Medicare-funded Permobil F5 non standing wheelchair in August, 2024. It had power legs, tilt, recline, and seat elevate. It came with lights as well as lateral thoracic and thigh supports. It has Roho seat and back cushions. Medicare (the US health insurance program for the disabled and elderly) was billed a bit more than $96,000 for this wheelchair.

According to my Medicare statements, Medicare actually paid a bit more than $96,000.

In the US, Medicare will not fund an F5 wheelchair. They will only fund an F3. I was allowed to pay the price difference between the F3 and F5 to upgrade to the F5. That price difference which I paid was $4,000. Medicare paid the rest. I have given up trying to figure out why US prices are so wacky.

Note that the F series of Permobil wheelchairs have gone through 3 iterations. The original (introduced around 2015), the "facelift" (introduced around 2019), and the Power Platform (introduced around 2024). I have had F5s in all 3 versions. I vastly prefer the current Power Platform version over the others.

While I really like my Power Platform F5, it has had problems. I have ridden a bit over 800 miles in it, even though it has been out of service for 3 of the 7 months I have had it. During that time the following issues have come up:

• Both motors started failing at about 500 miles. The wheelchair is in the shop having the motors replaced under warranty as I type this.
• Both batteries have tested bad. They are waiting to install the motors and retest the batteries before replacing the batteries under warranty.
• The AP Unit (most of the mechanism for the set elevate and tilt) failed and was replaced under warranty.
• The tilt motor is misbehaving. The are planning to replace it under warranty, unless than can find some reason not to.
• As delivered the wheelchair had an unacceptable amount of caster flutter. I found the bolts for the anti flutter kits were not torqued to spec. Things were better, but still unacceptable after torquing the bolts to spec. The anti flutter kits were replaced under warranty (I loaned my torque wrench to the tech that made the house call and provided him with the torque specs from the manual ). That greatly improved things, but there is still some flutter. The amount of flutter now present is acceptable to me.
• The drive tires have worn unevenly. I am wondering if it is because of the faulty motors (the left one started failing first and it is the left drive tire that is wearing faster). They have denied a warranty claim for this and are replacing the tires via insurance funding.

I take really good care of my wheelchairs, but use them a lot. The F5 motors typically only last me about 900 miles of riding, though I have had them fail sooner.

On my first wheelchair, a Permobil C500s VS, the motors only lasted about 350 miles.

Steve

[Raro]

Well, maybe it's just luck. Sometimes my F5 has almost 3,000 kilometers on it and its engines are the original ones. I know a guy who bought a new M3 last week and a few days later he took it to the official service center due to a failure in both engine brakes... maybe the person who has to repair these things doesn't have much of an idea.

[Burgerman]

The F5 seems to have more torque than the F3.

It maybe should. It wont be much. I think the f3 only has 2 pole. Its more intended for indoor type use. The F5 is intended for more serious or outdoor use.

How is it possible to make believe any chairs "price" is 96k?
The most expensive new chair I ever had was the Dietz. Lift, tilt, recline, power centre footrest lights etc, double arms, some custom stuff. About 12k. Paid by the NHS... Thats double the cost of my own personally bought chairs with better spec!

[fordragon88]

Well, maybe it's just luck. Sometimes my F5 has almost 3,000 kilometers on it and its engines are the original ones. I know a guy who bought a new M3 last week and a few days later he took it to the official service center due to a failure in both engine brakes... maybe the person who has to repair these things doesn't have much of an idea.

When I bought my 2022 Permobil F5, which was bought used from Europe, I couldn't even imagine the mileage on the wheelchairs being so high. It arrived with 5,900 kilometers on the clock.

[fordragon88]

The F5 looks a lot like the F3, but there are substantial differences.

• The F5 is more stable than the F3.
• The F5 is faster than the F3.
• The F5 takes group 24 batteries. The F3 takes either Group 34 or Group 24 batteries. The F3 is often provided with the group 34 batteries, so has less range.
• The F5 seems to have more torque than the F3.

I received a Medicare-funded Permobil F5 non standing wheelchair in August, 2024. It had power legs, tilt, recline, and seat elevate. It came with lights as well as lateral thoracic and thigh supports. It has Roho seat and back cushions. Medicare (the US health insurance program for the disabled and elderly) was billed a bit more than $96,000 for this wheelchair.

According to my Medicare statements, Medicare actually paid a bit more than $96,000.

In the US, Medicare will not fund an F5 wheelchair. They will only fund an F3. I was allowed to pay the price difference between the F3 and F5 to upgrade to the F5. That price difference which I paid was $4,000. Medicare paid the rest. I have given up trying to figure out why US prices are so wacky.

Note that the F series of Permobil wheelchairs have gone through 3 iterations. The original (introduced around 2015), the "facelift" (introduced around 2019), and the Power Platform (introduced around 2024). I have had F5s in all 3 versions. I vastly prefer the current Power Platform version over the others.

While I really like my Power Platform F5, it has had problems. I have ridden a bit over 800 miles in it, even though it has been out of service for 3 of the 7 months I have had it. During that time the following issues have come up:

• Both motors started failing at about 500 miles. The wheelchair is in the shop having the motors replaced under warranty as I type this.
• Both batteries have tested bad. They are waiting to install the motors and retest the batteries before replacing the batteries under warranty.
• The AP Unit (most of the mechanism for the set elevate and tilt) failed and was replaced under warranty.
• The tilt motor is misbehaving. The are planning to replace it under warranty, unless than can find some reason not to.
• As delivered the wheelchair had an unacceptable amount of caster flutter. I found the bolts for the anti flutter kits were not torqued to spec. Things were better, but still unacceptable after torquing the bolts to spec. The anti flutter kits were replaced under warranty (I loaned my torque wrench to the tech that made the house call and provided him with the torque specs from the manual ). That greatly improved things, but there is still some flutter. The amount of flutter now present is acceptable to me.
• The drive tires have worn unevenly. I am wondering if it is because of the faulty motors (the left one started failing first and it is the left drive tire that is wearing faster). They have denied a warranty claim for this and are replacing the tires via insurance funding.

I take really good care of my wheelchairs, but use them a lot. The F5 motors typically only last me about 900 miles of riding, though I have had them fail sooner.

On my first wheelchair, a Permobil C500s VS, the motors only lasted about 350 miles.

Steve

Is there any difference between the 2015 and 2019 versions? I have both versions, a 2019 and a 2022. So far, I've noticed the backrest and seat recline more slowly on the 2019 version. But I've only used them indoors so far.