Cruise Control in Permobil F5

[sergey0]

I'm trying to set up Cruise Control on the Permobil F5.
I created a profile, activated it, and made the changes as shown in the screenshots below. But the profile does not behave like Cruise — it acts like a regular profile.
As I understand it, the Latched Drive Enabled option (highlighted in red) needs to be set to Yes. But as soon as I change its value from No to Yes, the wheelchair displays Error 1201.

What am I doing wrong?
The configuration file I’m working with is attached.

Thank you.

[Burgerman]

I never played with latched controls. For 2 reasons. It worries me... And I presumed it only works with non proportional controls. Because otherwise its not logical. So a button or a mouth tube etc.

[sergey0]

It works perfectly on the Quickie Q700. And if we figure out the cause of the 1201 error, it will work on the Permobil as well. See link

youtu.be/rZ9zndTjzGk

[rover220]

1201 relates to bad settings in the esp module. you need to enable latched under esp/options

[sergey0]

1201 relates to bad settings in the esp module. you need to enable latched under esp/options

I set it to Yes in OEM Factory only, and I also tried setting it to Yes in both OEM Factory and ESP at the same time. The result is the same — error 1201.

[Burgerman]

Its what happens when you mix up R-Net components with permobil made ones. They dont talk to each other. Or work well...

If it were me, (yes I know its not) I would dump the permobil brand gyro (their ESP thing) and use a real R-Net one. Then all the oddball permobil gyro stuff in that menu will be gone, the normal settings under speeds will control the driving adjustments like your sunrise chairs and the "cruise" as you call it will work the same as the sunrise pure r-net chairs do presumbly.

https://www.cw-industrial.com/en-gb/med ... yro-module

Easy for me as I have one sat o a shelf. Removed from a rear drive chair as its not needed and drives much better without one.

[sergey0]

...

If it were me, (yes I know its not) I would dump the permobil brand gyro (their ESP thing) and use a real R-Net one. Then all the oddball permobil gyro stuff in that menu will be gone, the normal settings under speeds will control the driving adjustments like your sunrise chairs and the "cruise" as you call it will work the same as the sunrise pure r-net chairs do presumbly.
...

1. I’m not a supporter of making any changes to the technical components that would violate what the wheelchair manufacturer’s engineers have designed.

2. I still managed to get Cruise working correctly. The screenshots of what else needs to be changed are below. OEM Factory / Latched Drive Enabled should be left set to No.

[Burgerman]

1. I’m not a supporter of making any changes to the technical components that would violate what the wheelchair manufacturer’s engineers have designed.

Why?
The majority of manufacturers use the gyro that was meant to be used with the R-net system. The obvious R-net gyro. Seem permobil like get things made and use those, as a cost cutting thing, and mostly as a way of tying you into their own infrastructure. They make their own version of the gyro, their own seating module, their own joystick etc, that try to emulate and integrate with the r-net base system. Its like you are fitting aftermarket service parts to your car because the genuine parts were too expensive. Its these parts that tend to be the problematic ones. Especially seating related. Since a genuine R-Net gyro exists, its plug and play, no need for the permobil branded copy. It literally just plugs into the bus - one connector. And thats it done. I feel sure it will drive better too! I could never get a permobil with their own gyro system the steer properly after hours of trying.

[Raro]

Cruise control can be useful when you've been driving for a long time and your hand gets tired, at least it does for me. By the way, doesn't the Q700 in the video go over 7.4 km/h?

[Burgerman]

I saw no video. Its locked or unavailable.
But the Q700 can be 4mph (6kph) or HD 4mph using 5mph (8kph) 4 pole motors, 6mph (10kph) 4 pole programmed for 4 in some cases, 8mph 4 pole (13kph) 4 pole which are low torque... All 2 and 4 pole linix. Options depend where you live and how you buy.

Best setup compromise is 120A R-net with 6mph 10kph 4 pole on every chair though. With a big lithium pack...

I never played with latched controls. For 2 reasons. It worries me... And I presumed it only works with non proportional controls. Because otherwise its not logical. So a button or a mouth tube etc. At least thats what was intended.

OK I fixed the vid so I can watch it.
That scares me. Exactly what I expected. See above.
How did you stop it?
How does it steer without your hand? Because otherwise whats the point of it?
Seems like a great way to accidentally drive into a wall or off the train platform... No thanks!

[Raro]

But the Q700 can be 4mph (6kph) or HD 4mph using 5mph (8kph) 4 pole motors, 6mph (10kph) 4 pole programmed for 4 in some cases, 8mph 4 pole (13kph) 4 pole which are low torque...

That's why it caught my attention that the maximum speed is 7.4 km/h. I suppose that with the cruise control you can control the steering, right?

[Raro]

The function is to not have to push the joystick forward all the time.

[Burgerman]

Beats me.
If you steer with the joystick then whats the use of a latched drive? Just seems to me to be a way to make the chair drive while it shouldnt! You gotta steer it anyway so whats to be gained? Apart from panic as it drives you into a wall.

I know everone has different needs. But for the life of me I cant see why anyone would benefit.

In my own chairs they "roll on" when I let go, to a degree as I always set deceleration very low. And I rely on back stick brake. Its just smoother to drive that way. Like a car. The brake is the brake not the accelerator...

[Raro]

I suppose that's just that you don't get tired of pushing the joystick forward all the time. On long journeys on wide roads and highways, I don't think you'll have a problem.

[Burgerman]

But you still have to keep it pointing in the right direction, avoiding bumps or pot holes so even then you are still using the joystick. So will still be using it anyway.
It not like "cruise control" in a car, where you press a button to hold a speed. For e.g in a car you cant accidentally touch the accelerator and drive into your bedroom wall. It requires you to continue to press it. Cruise can only be engaged at some preset speed, typically 25mph. And touching a brake, releases it. On a chair its more like an accelerator pedal in your car that gets stuck down when you touch it! What happens if you just knock it in error? Away you go! Even on an empty chair!

Sounds a bit dangerous to me. But everyone is different!

[acid_coke]

I have also used it before with a joystick but quickly turned it back off again. It is VERY dangerous and I like not being DEAD.

I hope you are at the very least using latched drive with a dead mans switch?

[sergey0]

The majority of manufacturers use the gyro that was meant to be used with the R-net system. The obvious R-net gyro.

Until 2023, they used their own gyro; since 2023, they’ve been installing the R-Net gyro.

[Burgerman]

Well that makes much more sense!
And you dont want to?

They somettimes go very cheap on eBay. Sellers dont know what they are...
It will be easier to program using the usual speed settings in the head of the R-Net programmer and it will use the R-Net algo rather than the permobil one which I could never make work properly.

[rover220]

The majority of manufacturers use the gyro that was meant to be used with the R-net system. The obvious R-net gyro.

Until 2023, they used their own gyro; since 2023, they’ve been installing the R-Net gyro.

No, they had a spell during covid where they couldn't get the parts for their esp system so reverted to the rnet gyro. They have been back using esp since 2023 on rnet chairs.

New power platform chairs have rnet gyro built in to the power module.

[sergey0]

No, they had a spell during covid where they couldn't get the parts for their esp system so reverted to the rnet gyro. They have been back using esp since 2023 on rnet chairs.

New power platform chairs have rnet gyro built in to the power module.

1. Got it, thank you for the more detailed information.
2. Is the gyro module built into the PM R-Net? Into all controllers, or only into the controllers made for Permobil?

[sergey0]

Well that makes much more sense!
And you dont want to?

They somettimes go very cheap on eBay. Sellers dont know what they are...
It will be easier to program using the usual speed settings in the head of the R-Net programmer and it will use the R-Net algo rather than the permobil one which I could never make work properly.

I don’t really need it — the wheelchair isn’t mine; I was just asked to configure a few functions on it. As I understand it, the Permobil module can’t be configured at all. The R-Net system recognizes it as an “Unknown module.”

[rover220]

No, they had a spell during covid where they couldn't get the parts for their esp system so reverted to the rnet gyro. They have been back using esp since 2023 on rnet chairs.

New power platform chairs have rnet gyro built in to the power module.

1. Got it, thank you for the more detailed information.
2. Is the gyro module built into the PM R-Net? Into all controllers, or only into the controllers made for Permobil?

Only new power platform chairs have the gyro built into the module. Older rnet/ics based chairs use external gyro or esp.

[sergey0]

Only new power platform chairs have the gyro built into the module. Older rnet/ics based chairs use external gyro or esp.

What is the name of the new platform? Where can I read about it, see the specifications, features, etc.?

[Burgerman]

Well its a permobil thing... Like their ICS or Joystick or gyro. Made for them under licence by various compnies and in this case by PG. So only permobil. They wont tell you anything other than super basic stuff. And some marketing.

[Burgerman]

I don’t really need it — the wheelchair isn’t mine; I was just asked to configure a few functions on it. As I understand it, the Permobil module can’t be configured at all. The R-Net system recognizes it as an “Unknown module.”

Thats for several reasons.
a) gyro related stuff is not DEALER level. So that DEALER level On Board Programming wouldnt let you configure it anyway.
b) the joystick is PG Drives, a CJSM2. the power module where the joystick talks to, is PG drives, the permobil made gyro isnt... So the joysticks on board programming hasnt heard of it!
c) in the PC software its possible to see the permobil gyro, and the special "permobil speeds" settings section. And you shouldnt mess with the speeds settings in the normal place at the top of the menu like other chairsAnd the programmer can read that and change the settings. But its hard to make it much better.

The power module has extended firmware that undestands the permobil gyro.

At the top, where all normal chairs settings are adjusted. On a permobil they look mighty odd! And shouldnt be changed.

On a permobil with their own gyro theres an extra place added to the menue much lower down under ESP where you adjust these things. And below that
the gyro settings. I recommend you leave these alone. You can change stuff, and it changes the way it drives a bit... But not in a good way or predictably if you are trying to get linear control. Why? No idea.

This is for te permobil gyrro chairs - lower down, doesent exist on R-Net only systems. And the only place you should adjust anything.

[martin007]

sergey0!


What software and hardware are you using to try to reprogram your Permobil?

[sergey0]

sergey0!
What software and hardware are you using to try to reprogram your Permobil?

R-Net Permobil Software + R-Net Dongle

[sergey0]

to Burgerman
Thank you for the tip on where the Permobil gyro module settings are located. Now I know. I wasn’t planning to interfere with them anyway.

[Burgerman]

Well, do you have OEM capable software? A B level dongle?

You can TRY it is so! I dont think you will make it much better though.


Heres what happens.
To get any chair to steer in a linear intuitive proportional way you need to remove all the delays. So that the chair exactly follows what you do with the joystick, and not some time afterwards... As its configured now you only get a turn at the rate you CHOOSE say half stick, after around 3 seconds. It "accelerates" slowly to this turn speed. When it doesent turn as you expected you naturally add more "turn"... But now the initial turn input takes effect! And its turning more than you wanted. And then that extra amount you added starts to kick in too! So the delay caused you to overcontrol the chair. So now you panic and naturally add the opposite turn... Which doesent work as we also have a slow turn deceleration setting! So again in panic you add more... Eventually all this kicks in and you over control in the opposite direction.

To make the chair turn predictably at the rate you want you need to set turn accel, minimum turn accel, turn decel, and minimum turn deceleration all to 100.

100 on all 4 of those settings means that it reaches the turn rate YOU CHOOSE and STOPS TURNING WHEN YOU DECIDE in near real time. As if the steering control is connected to the wheels mechanically like your car.
When a gyro, especially a permobil one is included it reacts badly to this. The chair becomes very jerky and uncomfortable. So it forces you to lower these settings. And re-introduce all the damned delays...

So I disable or remove gyros on mid, and rear drive chairs. But on a front drive chair they are required. That means no front drive chair will ever steer properly...

[sergey0]

Well, do you have OEM capable software? A B level dongle?

Software OEM, Dongle B