To make a powerchair STEER PROPERLY

[Burgerman]

In this case, R-Net, applies to all generally but maybe different names etc.
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If you want a chair that steers properly, in a linear, accurate & intuitive way. That turns at the rate you tell it. That stops turning exactly when you say so (and not sometime afterwards). That follows the joystick in easy obvious way like a computer mouse, or your car, then theres only ONE set of settings that will do this.

And there are quite literally 100s of possible parameters, and millions of permutations and many affect each other one way or another.

No WCS or Tech, or DME or "expert" will or can do this for you. Even if they have the OEM access level needed because they just dont seem to get it. Will not be prepared to make the changes needed, generally wont grasp the bull by the testicles, (dont try that) and they wont understand why you would want that. So forget about some shop, expert, or rep, manufacturer doing this for you because its just never going to happen. I have had people from all over this country and a few that were from ireland, and france drive days to my house in desperation over the last 27 years in frustration.

I estimate that 99% of chairs out in the world steer like what can best be described, as a "hovercraft" with delayed turn acceleration, and deceleration. It means you cant safely navigate a doorway without a fight or hit a "gap" at speed. You bash your knuckles or joystick on doorways, or cant get up or down the ramp on your van without driving into/off the edge. And it isnt YOU thats the problem!

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that anyone can program a chair in the way I describe below (so the thing steers properly), without setting at least the handful of settings listed below to values that the experts just WONT DO. Or cant do. Or cant/wont remove walls etc. They will say its "dangerous" or all sorts of other nonsense when in fact it's the exact opposite!
And it needs you to be sitting in the chair to fine tune all the rest of the settings afterwards so that this works properly. Doing PART of this list below will not work. Doing a "mild" version of it wont either.

Preliminary, essentials!!! + I personally would do the following.
I am saying WHAT WORKS properly!!! Its your choice!

1. never buy front drive or mid drive if you really care about a chair that steers properly.
Mid drive is borderline ok but directionally "harder" to control outdoors at speed directionally neutral.
Front drive chairs will *never* be able to steer properly and due to physics NEED a gyro and that alone removes proper feel and control. Dont try these settings below with a gyro...
Rear drive is directionally stable. Best platform for straight line stability. But it will need CG adjusting and centre mount footplate so its not too nose heavy.

2. never buy 2 pole motors. (Used as a general proxy here for low impedance motors here, so SOME 2 poles can be OK.) As essential Load Compensation doesent work properly (or at least as well).

3. make sure that no gyro is fitted or enabled. (hence no front drive chairs need apply!) as these things are terrible for intuitive control once programmed. And they will not work with these settings anyway.

4. make very sure that the whole chair is correctly mechanically configured as described in other posts elsewhere on here.
a) Especially CG position on rear drive as most are way too nose heavy.
b) And just as important joystick height and position. You MUST be able cup the side of the joystick with hand and lower fingers for a control reference position and hand stability. And control joystick knob ONLY with finger and thumb. IMPORTANT! Sitting your physical arm, on an arm-top, steering with fingers or hand over or above the joystick alone just does not work!!! You will never have any decent decent control in that way. And all the settings below that allow this easy linear fine intuitive control will make the chair too difficult for you. So the rest of this list will be of no use!!! If you dont have normal hands and good finger and hand dexterity you are going to struggle whatever you do however.

5. make sure that ONLY after the above is correctly sorted, and not before, to program it in the following way and dont miss ANYTHING!

Set FORWARD SPEED to 100 obviously... (thats the max speed your chair can go on speed 5.)
Set MINIMUM FORWARD SPEED to 10 to 15 or whatever feels OK indoors when set to speed 1. (Then speeds 2,3, & 4 will automatically be spaced between these auttomatically).

Set FORWARD ACCELERATION, to the highest that you can comfortablY live with. 65 to 70 seems OK for many people.
Set MINIMUM FORWARD ACCELERATION setting, to something just 10 lower than above.

Set FORWARD DECELARATION, to the lowest it will allow. Its still too high, but what can you do. You do not want it to brake hard every time you try to slow or release the stick. Because that makes the chair uncomfortable and jerky. So 20?
Set FORWARD MINIMUM DECELERATION to the same value. As low as possible. 20?
Set BACK STICK BRAKING to 70 to 85 and test. BEcause pulling the stick BACK is the brake!

Set REVERSE ACCELERATION, and REVERSE MINIMUM ACCELERATION to the same as forward acceleration. So at least 65 or above.
Set REVERSE SPEED to whatever you are comfortable with when set to fast (speed 5) outdoors, dont set this too fast. So typically 35? (Depends on motor rated speed). You decide how fast you need reverse.
Set REVERSE MINIMUM SPEED to 10 or 15? test. This is the indoor reverse speed when set to speed 1.

IMPORTANT! IMPORTANT! IMPORTANT!
Set TURN ACCELERATION, to a lowest value of 85 (not less!) and ideally to 100. This removes all the delayed action when you move the stick left or right. So the chair turns straight away at the speed that you tell it to do so, when you tell it. It will now do this proportionally. Set it lower and it doesent steer properly. If you set this lower than 85 it will turn slowly at first, and then long after you expect it, will turn faster! And you bash your knuckles on that door frame. Or drive off that ramp... 85 or higher!!!
SET MINIMUM TURN ACCELERATION to 85 or 100. Not less!!! The exact same problem as above!!!

THE MOST IMPORTANT SETTING OF ALL!!!
Set TURN DECELERATION, to 100. Definitely not less!!! So it STOPS TURNING as soon as you centre the stick. Otherwise it keeps on turning for up to a second or two AFTER YOU TRIED TO STOP IT! Again, this makes it impossible to hit a doorway or stay on a ramp or go through a small gap without crashing. This alone makes a chair dangerous if set lower. Set 100 and never change it!
Set MINIMUM TURN ACCELERATION to the same 100, Not less!!! This is exactly the same as above. But applies to speed setting of 1. So set to 100!!!

It may now FEEL too sensitive. That depends on you and your skills. Dont lower the 4 settings above!!! To fix this if its too "sharp" or sensitive for you, do the following:
Set TURN SPEED (active only when set to speed 5) to whatever you feel is a safe accurate and not too fast turn speed. That is easy to control. Test this on speed 5 outside in an open space. Typically set 25 to 35. Set this to your own choice and it may take a week to get this where you want it. This only applies when speed set to 5. It affects ONLY the maximum speed the chair turns when you turn in place. Like looking at a clock from above, on speed 5.
Set MINIMUM TURN SPEED to whatever feels correct indoors at slow speed set at 1. So typically choose 12 to 15? TEST!!! Set to whatever works at speed 1 indoors. It affects ONLY the maximum speed the chair turns (rotates) when you turn in place. Like a clock from above on speed 1.

Now it will steer in linear careful intuitive easy controllable fashion. And all that hovercraft steering is gone.

Set POWER to 100.
Set TORQUE to whatever allows the first 1 to 2 inch of chair movement when testing turn in place on a carpet with a small stick movement. Literally the first bit of movement, the tiny first bit of joystick initial response. Set to give a smooth but positive start to a turn in place, without jerking. It only works at super small initial movements when turning. Once rolling or actually turning, it does nothing you can detect. Set this too low and it may not turn in place at small stick movenments.

And I will set all of these above INDIVIDUALLY one at a time and then test. And retest.
I will spend at least 7 days fine tuning these as I use the chair.

To find what each setting actually does so that you can FEEL and IDENTIFY what to adjust, what setting does what, I will set each one to the lowest possible, and to the highest possible and test it. No other way to learn.

If you do exactly as described above you will only need or want a single profile. Delete all the rest if you want, as you dont need them.

NOW on many systems you will need to remove the "walls" the manufacturers added to stop you setting this chair properly. Why do that do that? So may be required in order to set things in the way described above.
You will see a section called OEM MANUFACTURING on the menu. And these setting are called ABS. Set all of those to the highest (typically 100) and the lowest (typically 0) so that the speed section will allow you to set the settings required to make it steer properly.



Without OEM access you cant do this.

[JohnnyUK]

Excellent post thank you

[Burgerman]

THIS vid shows all the things NOT to have or do on a rear drive and some other powerchairs. And yes just like dismal programming they are ALL like this as stock.

1. This chair has a massive ass. I would bounce that into half the stuff in my room. It would frustrate the hell out of me. Designers please note NO GOOD!!! And incorrect joystick position NO GOOD. And CG way too far forwards NO GOOD. And cant be fixed because no centre mount footplate so NO GOOD!!!

2. The CG is hugely too har forwards. That means that it will drive like an oil tanker and it needs a centre mount footplate in order to mount the seat about 4 inches further back. So it will turn into narrow doorways in confined spaces, (shorter no wide front "corners" and it then doesent overload the casters. And have the drive wheels under your backside rather than trying to steer and control the chair from behind you. You CANNOT achieve this with swing away foot riggings. Configured as stock like the one in video below makes the damned thing hopeless with inadequate rear traction and hard to turn in place or manoever indoors.

3. Holding a joystick in the way that she is doing in the video, MIGHT be the only way she can do it. Unfortunately. But laying your arm along the chairs arm, and trying to drive it by holding just the joystick top from above WILL NEVER RESULT IN ANY SENSIBLE LEVEL OF CONTROL. Please read that several times it matters. You need THIS hand position, PLAY VIDEO:
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4 (watch HAND and position. Ignore the antics! JUST watch my hand. (I always drive like a maniac. Ignore that.)

You must cup the side of the joystick with your lower fingers and hand. And drive with finger and thumb. The lower fingers and hand MUST sit alongside the joystick for positional reference and stability.
In the video below, her joysick is WAY too low to allow this. It must be se with the top body of the joystick about 20mm higher than the arm. And its too close to the arm end in the video. (arm needs to be shorter with a GAP for your hand. Or you cannot do this!!! It also needs to be about 2 inches inboard of the outer edge of the arm top. GET THIS STUFF CORRECT FIRST! Watch my linked video to see what that looks like.

ONLY WHEN THE 3 THINGS ABOVE are ALL correct, will you ever be in any real control and use the programming as described in this thread. If you dont do the things described here then its all hopeless. Whatever you do with programming will just be a waste of time.


Control - my vid. https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4

NO control...


youtu.be/7HIxxF7Sau4

[martin007]

Valuable information.

[Burgerman]

I just programmed an unseen chair, for someone by email... Thats always dodgy as I cant ask questions or see whats happening.
And computer illiterate doesent begin to describe him! But...

John is all exited!

By email... After days of trying to get his programmer to work.

Somehow we've loaded Burgerman settings file but the chair has outputted same program number as Original which was CR24093549

Need to try the chair out and see if I can spot a difference ....

Just been for a drive around the house the difference is astounding. It actually feels like I'm driving it in both Slow and All Speeds modes. It can get a bit 'snatchy' when turning in place at mid range "All Speeds" and the higher "SLOW" Speeds. This is very exciting so I'm going to give it a try out at Weelsby Woods. Will send further update later today

Difference is astounding... Thats because I configured it AS ABOVE. Now he can hit a doorway!
He has already had the WCS experts to "program" it. What a joke that is.

[JohnnyUK]

Difference is astounding... Thats because I configured it AS ABOVE. Now he can hit a doorway!
He has already had the WCS experts to "program" it. What a joke that is.

That's what I wrote to Burgerman yesterday. He didn't tell you how computer illiterate I am, bottom line is didn't have a clue about the basics it felt like he was talking Chinese to me. But he got there, quicker than I expected

This is about my new WCS supplied Q300R which I've had for almost 3 months, I've only done 1.4 miles in all that time because the chair was horrible to drive and, quite frankly, it was dangerous. WCS have sent their 'engineers' out to my house to reprogram this chair on 5 occasions and made it worse each time, they've spent hours tapping away at hand held programmer and achieved nothing.

My excitement grew when I finally secured an R-Net dongle, after pulling my hair out I managed to send BM the file with the program from my chair. A couple of hours later I checked email and he'd done it, it did take me a while to upload it still not sure how I did it. But then, hey presto, I get in the chair and it's like a new one. It's fantastic, point it where you want to go and it goes ... straight through the doorways and around the tightest of obstacles. I know the Q300R won't win any Best Chair prizes but it's pretty good, much better than I expected.

A massive thank you to Burgerman for tolerating my stupidity and for turning a chair I hate into a great machine

[Burgerman]

Those were my base starting point settings. To make it steer. I changed a bunch of walls, and disabled the gyro, etc and set the speeds section up so it steers. Now your dealer version can fine tune it to make it how you want.

Just do not lower the
TURN ACCELERATION
MINIMUM TURN ACCELERATION
TURN DECELERATION
MINIMUM TURN DECELERATION

And ask me what each thing actually does first and change ONE thing at a time! And test. If unsure what that 1 thing does, set it to extremes high, low. To get a feel so you know whats changing.

[JohnnyUK]

What are these "Walls" you changed?

Yes thanks for advice to leave those settings alone. I need to find a free day to test out the various (other) settings, but for now I'm happy with the performance of your initial program. Just need to increase power on Slow speed settings so I can get it up my WAV ramp without motors stalling. The SLOW range is great for navigating to my docking station to lock the chair into my van ready to drive

[LROBBINS]

If unsure what that 1 thing does, set it to extremes high, low.

Good advice for everything except Motor Compensation - make only small changes up or down to that. A bit too high & the chair becomes jumpy, a bit more too high and it can take off on its own!

[Burgerman]

Yes.
Although in DEALER you cant see that...

Walls?
In the OEM version, that you cant see either, there is a section that allows you to add walls that prevent you from increasing about 20 settings above or below certain values. Without removing those walls it wouldnt be possible to set the turn acceleration values for eg that allow it to turn when you say so. And to stop it turning when you tell it.

Another reason that the numpties at the WCS or local techs can fix it. They usually have dealer level tools, so cant ever possibly make it steer properly, even if they knew how. And they dont...

This is one reason that when people say they have "had a chair programmed" by some xyz expert, that I KNOW it still doesent steer properly! Theres others too.

Because of this practically every chair on earth has the exact same hovercraft steering. All of them. You john have experienced the difference.

email:
Apologies for long delays I've been struggling with my gammy leg over the last few weeks.

The chair is has been transformed from an unpredictable, undriveable pile of crap into a precise and controllable chair that's safe to drive and fun. I've had the Q300 getting on for 3 months and it's done 1.6 miles, it was left in the corner with my other chairs doing a better job. I've been in the chair all day, it drives great and definitely meets my needs.

I've had 3 WCS engineers (of varying pay grades) inspect and 'fiddle' with the chair making it worse every time. Each of them were happy to leave the chair with me in that state, I honestly think they believe they do a good job. What you produced in an hour or so was truly brilliant ... and you said those changes would break their rules. That's crazy.

From my bed without even seeing it.

[JohnnyUK]

From my bed without even seeing it.

Credit to you BM. Not only did you reprogram from your bed (in an hour) but you guided a muppet all the way through to a successful uploading back to my chair.

Readers please don't underestimate the value of a good program. My chair drives surprisingly well now for which I'm eternally grateful to Burgerman. You're a rude but kind man, a massive thank you for everything

I've just got to learn more about driving pc's next time I play with my dongle

[Burgerman]

Rude yes. But I say these things because I have a strange sense of humour! I do it because I think its funny. Many dont get it!
It is true that you are computer illiterate though!


As I said. From hovercraft to scalpel (almost) by guesswork as I cant see how it responds, or ask what you want or need.

The almost bit needs me to see EXACTLY what is happening with you sat in your chair. So that I can go through all the zillon settings to fine tune it ONE by ONE while explaining what it does. Some are very hard to "feel" unless you understand what they really do behind the scenes. That last 5%. just makes it better.
Or instead, to get YOU to do it. You will have to learn exactly what each individual setting is actually doing one, by one.
NEVER adjust more than one setting at a time, at once. Post here and I will explein exactly what each is doing. One a day...
Always figure out EXACTLY what it is doing. If required by adjusting it from min to max allowable and carefully testing (which is now very wide range as I removed walls in OEM) and testing CAREFULLY. This alone will take several days/weeks just to go through all the speed settings in the head.

Did you notice that I removed your 5 profiles. And left you only 2.
PROFILE ONE:
for an EMPTY CHAIR WITH A SINGLE INDOOR SPEED?

PROFILE TWO:
for ALL OTHER USES INDOORS AND OUT?

So that you really only need a SINGLE profile to drive a chair accurately indoors and out? With ease!
Only a single profile is needed on any chair ONCE THAT IS CORRECTLY CONFIGURED. Adding extra ones seldom has any purpose other than special cases like EMPTY CHAIR.

The walls removed, Gyro disabled, initial starting point speed settings for THIS Q300 R CHAIR is here in case anyone wants to look.
This was the "guesswork" anti hovercraft setup.

[JohnnyUK]

I've known you since 1973 and you've always been the same, rude and judgemental. Many will be offended by your style but I find it amusing even when I'm the one getting abused. To tell me your Mum or any 8 year old girl knows about R-Net programming simply isn't true, only the weird geeky ginger 8 year olds will get it. Anyway, regardless of my fragile feelings we got there and I learnt a bit along the way ... win win win. How many of your readers understand this stuff that you say everybody understands? You are my teacher John, I have a lot to learn

Yes the two speeds is the thing that made me realise I'd actually downloaded your program to my chair. I now use your SLOW speed for fine positioning when docking in my van. The other setting called ALL SPEEDS is actually split into 5 levels so it's still got 5 useable steps within ALL SPEEDS for the full 6 mph range .. I like it's simplicity

Maybe, one ay when you're feeling up to it, I could pop to yours for those final tailored adjustments? You won't always be the 'engineer in bed', I'm sure better days are just around the corner. Meanwhile I've got a chair that's a pleasure to use and I'm most grateful to you for that

[Burgerman]

Next week I start getting up. Hopefully!

So yes! But if you start with that SLOW profile and only change the things you identify that you want to change and tell me here I can tell you what to adjust.
One thing you will see on that SLOW profile is that all the settings have the same MINIMUM and MAXIMUM setting. So that it soesent matter what speed from 1 to 5 you set it is all exactly the same. This is so that when someone that is inexperienced drives it or moves it they cant inadvertantly have it set to a high speed and run over theselves or crash... Mines not called SLOW its called EMPTY.

It isnt intended to have you sat in it while moving around. Also you shouldnt neet to! I use 5 in the van.

So you can adjust the ALL SPEEDS profile instead of SLOW. So set that to speed 1 and test indoors, or in the van, and tell me EXACTLY in detail what needs to change. And only at ALL SPEEDS and 1. Once thats perfect then you can delete the SLOW profile...

Personally I use speed 5 all the time, in vans, in pubs, at home, etc. You get used to it and it just doesent matter. Its a proportional control like your RC aircraft is now. Turning it down to 4 or 2 ndoors is not needed if you have normal hand and correct joystick positioning. We can adjust those later.

[JohnnyUK]

Thanks for the feedback on speed adjustment. I've been out in chair again today and wouldn't change anything, it just seems to go where I point it. Maybe I'll get to be more discerning over the next few weeks and feel the need to tweak. Thanks for the heads up on max/min being the same on SLOW setting. Yes I'm using it on ALL SPEEDS 2 or 3 to get up WAV ramp and there seems to be plenty of torque, I'm happy with that.

Hopefully you'll be up and about soon, I'm sure you'll have a backlog of jobs by now so they'll be irritating you.

I like the fact it's proportional like the rc stuff, feels more natural to me. You have to laugh at manufacturers that go to lots of trouble to give us 5 speeds in 5 ranges with meaningful name plates ... and I'm happy to be back to 5 speeds and a SLOW option for fine positioning. Everything else from acceleration to turning to better overall control are good so far

[Burgerman]

Great.
The only reason they add 5 profiles is because its uncontrolable. So they try to add a special one for every speed. Now all of them are almost uncontrollable!
The very same reason that they refused to supply it without a gyro. I disabled that. Because those things make it all worse. And so they wasted £500 or whatever trying to make a badly programmed chair steer by adding one. The marketing vids says its great! Seriously...

This nonsense isnt your chair. It isnt sunrise. It the complete industry.

And I only did a mild job on your chair. I didnt even set those 4 parameters to 100. Yet... Incoming! If you still want to try that.

I sent you a tiny add on partial file that will increase torque at slow speeds.

[JohnnyUK]

Yes please I'd like to try it with the latest revisions I just can't suss out how to upload a partial file. It doesn't show up as R-Net file

The 'mild job' you did seems to be perfect for me, no more of that snatchy jerky stuff that wrecks my van. As you say I need to get a feel for what changing each parameter does, this ability to communicate with chair is a game changer. Without Burgerman's interventions I had no use for this chair, despite my £1500 contribution it would have been relegated to rusting away in the garage. Turns out I quite like the way it operates with my nimble torso, it's my favourite chair to use outside where I don't need the Lift function so often. All my other Mid Wheel drive and a RWD Sunrise Q50R Carbon don't steer well. the Q50 is by far the worst.

[stevelawiw]

I wonder what will happen if the chair ever goes back to WCS for a "service", what will they make of a chair that steers properly, and will they turn the horrible gyro thing back on?

[JohnnyUK]

I wonder what will happen if the chair ever goes back to WCS for a "service", what will they make of a chair that steers properly, and will they turn the horrible gyro thing back on?

Good point Steve but I doubt they'd appreciate a chair that drives well. WCS have already threatened to return everything back to factory presets if I mess with their wheelchair settings. I would of course get them to repair any broken bits and accept they may well reset my chair. Then I get my sexy dongle out and reload MY program ... I doubt they've thought of this loophole in their security systems. If they come to my house to check I won't let them in, easy

Burgerman warned they were idiots and its even worse I reckon imbeciles is a better label, some are worse than others. When I told one engineer it wasn't a good idea to have a gyro rolling around unrestrained in the battery box he confessed that he'd never heard of a gyro, he had no idea what a gyro was for

[Burgerman]

I have a threatening letter that said they were sending an engineer to set all the settings back to stock. Or removing the chair. I replied that they were welcome to try. And that I would make them look rediculous and incompetant in court.
They sent their expert. I let him in. He hadnt a clue, had no programmer, didnt know what he was looking at. I showed him my other chairs, lithium packs, the software/dongle etc and he had no idea what he was looking at AT ALL. They are truly clueless dimwitts.

The reps from the various companies dont know any better mostly either. Theres the odd one. If anything at all, they just turn up with a hand held or dealer programmer and a settings file that matches the chairs serial number from the manufacturer and load the olde stock hovercraft profile. When when they go, takes 2 secs to put it back how it was so its safe and steers again.

I actually consider the STOCK hovercraft programming that all chairs come with dangerous. As well as frustrating and impossible to get around a house. Its even dangerous trying to hit a gap between a car and a lampost at speed. You never know where its going to go if you ttempt to correct its path. Really not safe.

[NackerNed]

I must admit if my chair ever has to go back to the service company I automatically reload the stock profile. Mainly as it's now twice the speed they say it should be but the thick so called engineer nearly ploughed through a hedge at last pick up. It's bad enough they wreck the chairs back and forth in transit but they even cause indescribable damage in their facilities which always baffles me. I even take my joystick off now as they are so bad.

[Burgerman]

I like the way they call themselves "service agents".

Burgerman warned they were idiots and its even worse I reckon imbeciles is a better label, some are worse than others. When I told one engineer it wasn't a good idea to have a gyro rolling around unrestrained in the battery box he confessed that he'd never heard of a gyro, he had no idea what a gyro was for

If it rolls around its for making the chair crash a lot.

[faico_26]

Difference is astounding... Thats because I configured it AS ABOVE. Now he can hit a doorway!
He has already had the WCS experts to "program" it. What a joke that is.

That's what I wrote to Burgerman yesterday. He didn't tell you how computer illiterate I am, bottom line is didn't have a clue about the basics it felt like he was talking Chinese to me. But he got there, quicker than I expected

This is about my new WCS supplied Q300R which I've had for almost 3 months, I've only done 1.4 miles in all that time because the chair was horrible to drive and, quite frankly, it was dangerous. WCS have sent their 'engineers' out to my house to reprogram this chair on 5 occasions and made it worse each time, they've spent hours tapping away at hand held programmer and achieved nothing.

My excitement grew when I finally secured an R-Net dongle, after pulling my hair out I managed to send BM the file with the program from my chair. A couple of hours later I checked email and he'd done it, it did take me a while to upload it still not sure how I did it. But then, hey presto, I get in the chair and it's like a new one. It's fantastic, point it where you want to go and it goes ... straight through the doorways and around the tightest of obstacles. I know the Q300R won't win any Best Chair prizes but it's pretty good, much better than I expected.

A massive thank you to Burgerman for tolerating my stupidity and for turning a chair I hate into a great machine

Hi, I am in the same situation with the same chair Q300R. Sorry BM for the delay in sending you the file. Mine is 4 pole motors and it is not smooth at all plus the motors are very noisy. Is your chair a 4 pole motors too? I tried a Q200R with 2 pole motors and it was silent and very smooth. Another thing that pisses me off is that the chair only reaches 9km/h not 10 as I expected.

[Burgerman]

Everyones definition of "smooth" is different. But 4 poles are "notchy" especially when new when moving at super slow speeds. That tends to wear off as the rubber cush drive/coupling softens up after a little use.

You wont get a repy from JohnnyUK sadly as he passed away 10 days ago. Yet another one this year.

[faico_26]

Everyones definition of "smooth" is different. But 4 poles are "notchy" especially when new when moving at super slow speeds. That tends to wear off as the rubber cush drive/coupling softens up after a little use.

You wont get a repy from JohnnyUK sadly as he passed away 10 days ago. Yet another one this year.

Oh I am so sorry, my condolences to the family.

[faico_26]

Regarding the notchy feeling of 4 pole motors at super slow speeds I agree 100%. All my life I had 2 pole 6km/h motors in light wheelchairs such as the Invacare Mirage and it is super smooth and silent.
Regarding the noise of Sunrise 4 pole motors, the guy at the store told me that is due to having 4 poles instead of 2, because 4 brushes instead of 2 make that noise due to the friction. Is that true? Or maybe the noise (like a buzz) comes from the gearbox? Honestly it does NOT look to me like a metallic noise coming from the gearbox.

[faico_26]

Everyones definition of "smooth" is different. But 4 poles are "notchy" especially when new when moving at super slow speeds. That tends to wear off as the rubber cush drive/coupling softens up after a little use.

You wont get a repy from JohnnyUK sadly as he passed away 10 days ago. Yet another one this year.

Excuse BM, what is the “rubber cush drive/coupling”?

[Burgerman]

In all chairs, between the motor, and the gearbox there is a rubber coupling. Designed to remove that ultra low speed notchy feel. When new they are hard. When old they are soft (and disintegrate...)

In between times they make things smoother.

But again this depends on your definition. You can only feel this at 0.01mph. About 1/2 an inch per second. Any faster, like actually moving anywhere and it vanishes. It a tiny affect and really shouldnt bother anyone. The fact that I can feel it on a new chair is of absolutely zero significance to me? I cant say I ever notice in use. Only if looking for it. But my chairs are all programmed to go. I dont move about at those speeds. It exists but, who cares?

Why does it bother you?

These, are some that I disintegrated earlier in true blue peter fashion!
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerchair-fault.htm

And one or two very failed ones...
That black stuff is what used to be rubber...

[Burgerman]

Heres how they SHOULD look. And some that are failing...

When you load up the motor hard they fail. Especially if your chair is programmed to GO like mine all are. And if you drive it like you stole it. Then, these things fail on every chair I had them fail on 2 and 4 pole motors, EMD linix, and AMT.

The rubber twists, expands outwards and breaks the external steel case. And then you go nowhere!
This takes me about a week.
To prevent this from ever happening, then BEFORE you break them while the chair is new, cut some steel or stainless steel tube, that is a tight fit externally over the top. Press this together in a vice with some loctite. Then file and trim up neatly. (not shown here)

Now. DO these BEFORE they fail as in most cases you cant find new ones... And in any case you dont want to get stranded far from home.
A picture is worth a 1000 words...

[faico_26]

Wow that is really valuable information. I didn’t know how the motor connected with the gearbox, thanks. And knowing the weak part of the conection and how it can fail. The solution you show in the picture is awesome, thanks BM.
In old chairs like Invacare Mirage or Sunrise Rumba with 2 pole motors, the way to freewheel the chair is by moving a handle which comes from the gearbox and doing so you free the wheels which will move freely and somebody can easily push the chair. But in most chairs nowadays the system is moving a small handle on the front side of the motors which releases the brake I think. But then pushing the chair is very hard because you move everything (motor and gearbox). Do you know why manufacturers have stop producing the gearbox release way?