Can't get R-Net with Bounder high speed package

[emilevirus]

But.. It was made for a modern use. Touch screens.

[Burgerman]

An software that is correctly written can work on conventional PC or laptops, SHOULD also be navigable by keyboards alone AS WELL!
That vnishing scroll bar also depends on screen resolution being adequate to actually SEE the buttom or the right side... Because it also doesnt scale correctly.
So FULL SCREEN is actually SMALLER than the smallest window possible to have in windowed mode...
Its useless.
Some young idiot that lives on his phone thinks real computers are something you add later as they port it to "pc" afterwards. Which always ends up as crap software.

Look at the top of your browser. Its not just the scroll bar thing. Theres a menu. Under every command there SHOULD BE an underlined letter than allows you to press control plus that letter. You should be able to navigate all screens and all commands via keyboard and the tab key. OR conventional 2 button mouse and buttons.

This is true of ALL my mountains of quality software. It also works fine with a touchscreen which I have but have it disabled. I cannot stand bloody touch screens. Its a clumsy way to navigate while also mucking up the screen with smeary marks...

[ex-Gooserider]

Ditto on hating touch screens - I call them the 'poke & pray' interface... Definitely one of the many reasons I won't use a 'smart phone'. I use a separate corded keyboard and mouse (2-button + Scroll Wheel) on any of my machines, including my laptop.... I get most of my keyboards and mice off our 'cruft shelf' for free, though lately I've been starting to consider diving down the 'mechanical keyboard' rabbit hole... I got a nice mechanical keyboard to test free from Amazon, and it is really nice to type on... Much nicer than the typical economy boards from Dell and others... This one is a bit noisy, and I am not real fond of it's blinky LED backlights, but the feel is at least as nice, if not better than the original IBM "Model M" PC keyboards...

I prefer corded keyboards and mice because I'm a klutz that regularly throws them at the floor, and I like that corded things have this handy built in retrieval string....

ex-Gooserider

[emilevirus]

So I got the 13x4 wheels but what if I want a set of 13x5 wheels. Is it a special hub or can I get a 13x5 rim + tire on Amazon?

[Burgerman]

What tyre are you trying to fit?
What size are stock tyres and stock rims? What PCD?

[Yennek]

So I got the 13x4 wheels but what if I want a set of 13x5 wheels. Is it a special hub or can I get a 13x5 rim + tire on Amazon?

For a Bounder? they are a 4 bolt pattern on a 3.5" circle with a just smaller than a 2" center bore needed... Something like 1-13/16". I have a set of the "off-road" wheels from Bounder. 6" diameter by some thing wide? They were wider than wanted anyway. I can check if you care. Willing to part with for the right price, but probably only practical to ship and such if you are located in the USA.

Oh and also the wider wheels may need some sort of spacer. When I got them, they had a 1" spacer between the sprocket and the hub/spindle, another 1" spacer on the axle shaft, and a 1" longer axle. If you aren't too worried about how the bearings are loaded you could probably just run a spacer between the wheel and the spindle, and use longer lug bolts.

A number of options for tires for the existing rims, anything for a 6" rim should work, but is a bit of a trial and error. Recommend pulling the shock off when test fitting so you can move the suspension through the full range.

[emilevirus]

Its not. Its likely because they pay less for dynamic if they buy enough or something.

Both perform exactly the same. They will never be able to give a rational engineering reason. At least one that makes any sense. Try them.

They will say something like they have auto adaptive compensation adjustment or something. Its all nonsense.

Here's what a guy told me:

so bounder wont sell you a high speed chair with R-Net controls on it because the braking algorithm isnt adjustable on it at all..

when ya let go if the joystick on an R-Net chair, a timer starts - when it runs out the brakes WILL TURN ON regardless of your speed or movement!

Dynamic LiNX however is adjustable and works MUCH better. if you are maneuvering slowly the brakes turn on almost instantly which is great!
you'll notice brakes are way more responsive with LiNX controls.

[Burgerman]

so bounder wont sell you a high speed chair with R-Net controls on it because the braking algorithm isnt adjustable on it at all..

Just like the roboteq, and the Dynamic linx the brake is applied when the motor volts = 0. It, (in common with all controllers) do this, as well as adding say 1/30th or 1/60th of a second (think camera shutter time) so that the brake isnt always chattering around zero. Its adds some delay ON PURPOSE as it clicks repetedly and anoyingly if not.
So thats complete bollox.

when ya let go if the joystick on an R-Net chair, a timer starts - when it runs out the brakes WILL TURN ON regardless of your speed or movement!

Quite obviously false. I can set the brake (which really is the forward deceleration or backward deceleration) to a really high value, or to a really low one that I actually prefer. When the chairs motor stops rotating the motor which is a generator gets to 0V. Thats when the brake is applied. Regardless of if it takes 3 seconds or 30 seconds.
And thats wy you never see your brake come on while rolling... Or 20 seconds after you stopped.

So quite obvioulsly complete bollox and nothing to do with a timer... And easily demonstrated. That guy is a moron. Or thinks you are.

Dynamic LiNX however is adjustable and works MUCH better. if you are maneuvering slowly the brakes turn on almost instantly which is great!
you'll notice brakes are way more responsive with LiNX controls.

There are no "brakes" as such. You stopping is a consequence of the controller sending power to slow the motors. Its "brake" is just a motor movement lock. Those do not get applied until the motor is stationary. In all cases with all controllers inc robotics ones.
Its possible of some controllers to change this microscopic time delay between stopping and the brake coming on. I tested everything from a fraction of a second to a full second. Cant say it makes any difference. The click just gets less anoying when its slower. It clicks less often as you manoever. On a slope it makes maybe 1/4 of an inch difference in roll back... The thing is that the motor compensation stops it rolling anyway.
So this is just just illogical bullshittery.

[emilevirus]

That's what I thought. It may be true with the old Pilot+ If I go up the ramp to get inside my house it'll start going backwards before applying the brakes. Annoying because I need to press the door opener. But that doesn't happen with R-Net so that guy is probably a shill.

[Burgerman]

If it rolls back (as all chairs do to an extent) significantly then the motor compensation is too low.

PG Drives:

Once this value has been programmed, some drive testing should be carried out.

First of all, check that the wheelchair is controllable and comfortable to drive on a smooth, level surface. If it is not, then the value of Compensation may be too high and should be reduced.

Then drive the wheelchair towards a gradient at a very low speed, perhaps 10%. There should be no reduction in speed as the wheelchair climbs the gradient. If the speed drops or the wheelchair stops, then the value of Compensation may be too low and should be increased.

As a final check, drive the wheelchair up a gradient at full speed and release the joystick. The wheelchair should come to a smooth, complete stop and should not rollback before the brakes are applied. If the wheelchair does roll-back, then try increasing the value of Compensation slightly. If the wheelchair appears to drive slightly up the gradient before the brakes are applied, then the value of Compensation should be reduced slightly.

All these tests should be conducted when the motors are cold and hot.

[emilevirus]

So APPARENTLY, if the motor don't come to a stop within a given time which could happen in a steep hill and you're overgeared, R-Net will just apply electromagnetic brakes while LinX will just wait longer as it's defined in its configuration. I'd LOVE if someone could test that to see if it's BS or not.

[Burgerman]

I tested it with the adjustable delay via roboteq trying o choose the best figure. Cant honestly say it made enough difference to anything to matter. Set as long as a second it just clicks a bit less when going slowly indoors. So I left it there. The only thing that was conclusive was that if you disable the brake and TURN OFF the controller it rolls away into traffic...

It doesent matter much what its set to as long as it actually comes on when your chair is off. Try it. Disable the brake on your chair. Less clicking, control pretty much the same. It will roll slowly on a steep ramp, (controlled by compensation) if you let it. But a bit of back stick stops it moving. So you wont roll into traffic. Unless the power goes off...

[emilevirus]

So worst case it applies brakes too soon. I can't see this being a safety risk tho.

[Burgerman]

Its not. But it makes the brake click about a 100 times as you try and move around really slowly. And its very annoying!

So I set the Roboteq to a high value so it only clicks it you are actually fully stopped for maybe half a second (dont remember the actual figure now). It doesent make a lot of difference what is set to as long as its not too fast and clicky!

[emilevirus]

See... If you're patient you can get stuff for cheap. Managed to snag the linx touch joystick (CJSM2 equivalent) for $80. The seller was asking $600 I offered $80 and he accepted!
Bounder wanted $1250 for it.

[Burgerman]

I know!
I have 5 or so complete backup R-Net systems. The key is learning to make daft offers, rapidly before someone buys it and patience! And time. And learning to search for the wrong terms and on many different countries sites.

[emilevirus]

So LinX has an option for regen braking even if battery is disconnected or BMS disconnects itself. We were just talking about that. On R-Net the caps would blow off so how'd linx do that? Where would the excess energy go?

[Burgerman]

It shorts out the motors. Same way scalextric did their braking.

Take any hobby motor, or any DC motor and spin it. It turns easily and you just feel the magnetic "compression".
Now connect its wires together and it tries to be a generator and its wires are shorted out. So the motor is now very hard to turn. The energy generated instead heats up the motors armature.

Similar thing on some trucks. They have magnets on the prop shaft, and there is a set of coils placed around it. If the weight causes a brake overheat runaway down a hill, the windings are connected to produce back EMF braking.

It was called telma braking by this company.
https://www.telma.com/

I used one of those when building bike dyno systems as a retarder.

[emilevirus]

Shame R-Net doesn't have that feature. It'd make my chinese chair without elecromagnetic brakes a bit more safe.

[Burgerman]

You dont need it.
Just fit a 30V zener diode across the output to the battery. Voltages then cant go above 30.

[emilevirus]

But that doesn't help would it? My point is if the BMS hits LVC and turns off, it just goes freewheel.

[Burgerman]

No. The brake comes on, no power!
Unless you mean your dodgy no brake chinese chair? In which case I dont know. It will use some means of staying alive without external power while it slows.
The R-Net slows and stays alive while it stops as long as you are going at some sensible speed by running off the regenerated voltgage. The old dynamic systems do the same.
Theres a setting in r-net that controls how fast it slows on power failure or switch off in error. Once actually stopped, no more power GENERATED so it shuts off and goes dark. Now it cant slow you down any more. But it doesent have to as the brake should have now come on when you stopped.

R-net help:
This sets the deceleration rate that is used while the wheelchair is “soft-stopping”. “Soft-stopping” is if the system is powered-down while the wheelchair is being driven.

The programmable range is 0 to 200 in steps of 1.

If this value is the same or lower than the Forward Deceleration value, then the latter value will be used for “soft-stopping”.

WARNING:

It is the wheelchair manufacturer’s responsibility to ensure that the wheelchair complies with the correct legislation for braking distances for the country in which the wheelchair is to be sold. PGDT accept no liability for losses of any kind resulting from incorrect programming of this parameter.

Maybe in the Linx a super capacitor or something internally keeps it alive for a few seconds more after it stops? I doubt it though. Once its stopped that probably goes dark just the same way. Cant tell you. You will have to test. The regulations only state that it must be safe and stop within x meters on power failure since they all use trips or fuses. Rules and regulations to keep us safe... But the setting in Linx is likely the equivelent one to the above - and a legal requirement.

Its not just LVC, it can be a over current spike, cell balance or a high resistance cell, any number of things that turns off a BMS. Makes no sense to have all that protection nonsense on a chair anyway. Better connect it direct and only use the BMS for charge duties. If you cannot do that then set all the safety nazi stuff to values that dont trip you up ever. So that they do not trip. At which point what are they really for?
All you need is its balancing duties.

[Burgerman]

My chairs all have a anderson with a loop of cable. This disconnects the battery. When I pull it out while rolling the chair decelerates quite hard, once it stops the brakes come on, and it then switches off and goes dark.

I expect that the LinX will do the same thing.

I shouldnt do it, it spikes the regen voltage presumably and can kill the mosfets and capacitors. So I dont try it at max speed just in the house...

[emilevirus]

Well the setting says "braking when a battery isn't present" so I suppose it works somehow.
Here's what the setting says:
When this setting is turned on, the controller uses plug braking or internal dynamic braking, dissipating the energy as heat in the motor windings and FETs, not regenerating it.

Makes no sense to have all that protection nonsense on a chair anyway.

But in my case, it's just 10ah lithium so it hits LVC pretty soon.

[Burgerman]

When this setting is turned on, the controller uses plug braking or internal dynamic braking, dissipating the energy as heat in the motor windings and FETs, not regenerating it.

So just like R- and all controllers it shorts out the motor windings when power is off because the mosfets cannot switch without both battery power and someplace to send the energy.
That will brake you from speed. (using te motor generator effect I described in the above posts). The less the motor spins however, as you slow the less it generates, and so the less EMF resistance to rotation there is. So once you grind almost to a halt theres nothing stopping it rolling. Say down a slope at the road edge. It wont roll quickly as that generates power to be shorted by the mosfets. But roll it will. Down a ramp into traffic for e.g. Its not a substitute for that friction brake your chair should have. And all controllers do this. Even hobby ones.

>>>But in my case, it's just 10ah lithium so it hits LVC pretty soon.

Then the battery is too small... A low voltage cutoff is not the rigt answer anyway. Disable that or leave it set to its stupidly low settings, and set a low voltage limit in the controller at say 24V or 3.00V so that it reduces power to not go below that voltage, controlled smoothly and PROPORTIONALLY inside the controller. By reducing current draw to maintain 24V. That will then not chop off power suddenly it will prevent heavy currents or hard acceleration from dropping the voltage under load as the battery gets lower. As the battery gets lower it will do this reduced power level, more and more and you will feel it as you drive. You get less torque or speed as the battery runs low. And it wont cut off power suddenly leaving you to roll without control, or stuck in the middle of a road/on a train ramp or something. We dont need or want a BMS to do this in an ON/OFF voltage digital fashion...

[Burgerman]

By which I mean you do not want a BMS that has no idea why its chopping off power to do this. You may be crossing a 6 lane road at night. All your lights will go off and you will be unable to move! Or it will roll down a hill.

Instead disable that nonsense and anything else that can chop off power and set these to the chair.
If UNDER LOAD the voltage drops to 22V (2.75v per cell) it will cut power off. It will not do that by chopping off the power and the controller will start flashing a single red. And you will not stop, but slow down progressively and get less and less torque. Before this happens you can set it to start flashing lights when you have 1, 2, 3, or more lights lit. And at the same time sound an alarm. So before it ever reaches the point where you cant move any longer, you will be warned at a point you can choose.

Without the danger of being trapped without lights, or whatever in a road or halfway up a ramp... Where it rolls back down.

A BMS does nothing useful or predictable or safe!
The controller will stop you moving. It will not disable the lights. It will apply brakes. And will reduce power gradually and warn you in advance if programmed to do so.

[emilevirus]

So I just received the Bounder. We can see Linx is less polished than R Net. I ordered the Bounder with basic joystick and got a touchscreen joystick cheap on eBay. Upon plugging it in, it just had a red error screen, no error description, nothing. I plugged the programming dongle. It said "communication error". Took me a while to understand that the PM had firmware V7 and joystick had V5. After updating it, it works fine but ehh you gotta know. Wouldn't be hard to code an error "version mismatched".

[Burgerman]

Are you planning to swap it for r-net?

[emilevirus]

I'll test it first. Waiting for my cells from Docan to arrive now. The chair came with a 120A breaker. Shall I replace it with a 150A fuse? Breaker causes more resistance right?

[Burgerman]

The issue with breakers is that they use a bimetalic strip that changes its properties with repeated heating. So begin to trip sooner. And they have contacts that are pressed together. These get hot under load, as does that bi metalic strip, and they oxidise. That increases resistance and so heats up that bi-metalic strip sooner. And that heating is what causes it to trip.

So OK when new...

I would use a 150A fuse, preferably a midi one.