Lift or no lift...

[Burgerman]

This is the question.

In the past I always have had a chair, usually an old one kicking around WITH a lift that I seldom used. Why? Because its useful occasionally when you know you are going to need to get up somewhere higher.

For e.g. look at my rooM, in the pics below. Much stuff on high up shelves. If I know I am doing something (like today) where I know I will need to access those boxes or things on the high shelves I will use a chair with a lift. Same if I am trying to clean my van. Or attempting to reach stuff on shelves in the garage. Also if I am going to somewhere I miht want to take some pictures!

But a lift has a lot of bad consequences.
It makes the chair way heavier. The lift module alone weighs an absolute tone. Worse it sets up high, and raises the user up another inch even if lowered as far as it goes. This causes enough issues as it is for battery performance, stabiliy, caster shake likelyhood, reliability, and the feel of the chair. It also causes the chair to feel "flexible" and not solid and rigid. Even when down.

So MOST of the time I prefer to use a much lighter more nomble rigid feeling chair. Its just ncer to use.

Now if like me you have a bunch of chairs to choose from, then you will want a chair with lift. Preferably 300mm or more. For the times when its important. And chairs without for when you are busy and going places!

However theres some reasons why you may NEED lift all the time. For e.g if you have say dressing bench, sofa, bed all at different heights in order to transfer. Or in order to empty a legbag into a toilet. Personally I used to just go outside! But thats not always possible.

What about you?

[Flagmax]

Very good question which has been on my mind recently. My current chair only has tilt. That has been a very useful function for me and a MUST have from now on. For one, I can stretch out my back and relax my butt and legs few times a day which helps with pain. I can also get in under low tables. I have disabled the tilt inhibit and can drive at any tilt. Now I can go down steep hills tilted way back much safer and more comfortable and up the hills tilted all the down. I also use tilt to allow for better reaching ability from the front and picking up things.

The next function I would get is recline to give a chance to straighten and stretch out my upper body in addition to the tilt.

Then I would go for the lift. I no longer have the ability to raise my arms above my head. A lift would give me the ability to reach some light switches, a thermostat, use an above stove microwave and get to things on the shelves. I've also gotten in some elevators before and could not reach the numbers, a lift on the chair would have been helpful. Also its becoming more common to see tall tables at restaurants or people homes and a lift would be perfect in such cause. Another ability the lift would give is I could talk to people at eye level at various functions especially in noisy environment.

Yes the lift hardware adds extra weight and the shaky feel but you can get used to it and worth having it in my opinion than not.

Oh forgot to add, finally I would get power footplates that are removable.

[Burgerman]

I never saw removable power footrest unless the swingaway types that I dont like.

The next function I would get is recline to give a chance to straighten and stretch out my upper body in addition to the tilt.

If you are having a lift, it makes no sense NOT to also have power tilt/recline (these two just go together for pressure relief purposes anyway) and also power legs for balance. So your circulation and chairs balance is similar to being laid down albeit at a not quite "straight" position. Because once you add the weight of a lift, the small extra mass for tilt or recline is pretty much irrelivant, and a fraction of the total.
And power footrest (centre?) is actually quite heavy. But its lower down. So actually help along with your legs to prevent a rear drive chair tip back or tip you out when tiltted and reclined.


If you are going to have the really heavy lift, then it makes little sense not to get tilt, recline and power footrests at the same time. It all sort of works together. But a light nimble sporty chair with great drivability and good outdoors it certainly wont ever be! So its a case of just because you can doesent mean you should! More isnt always better. If you only have one chair.

A completely stock chair 2017 with pram wheels, and nothing configured...

[700R]

Horses for courses I guess. Personally a lift function presents more problems than it's worth and would only be used to look down womens tops, so I could get into more trouble than I manage regularly anyway.

In your case, BM, if you have a chair with it and you can be bothered to transfer just to use it then it's worth having it around for your needs. If it was your only chair I doubt you'd spec it.

Flagmax needs are different and entirely valid.

When you don't have a chair completely suitable for all needs like I have found recently it becomes tedious constantly transferring into what suits what challenge. However, since finally getting the 700R almost spot on, I find myself only using one chair so don't even consider swopping chairs unless utterly necessary or maintenance is necessary.

Tilt has always been essential for comfort and recline comes in handy sometimes but not essential as that only serves to make any backrest less rigid inducing play and noises - the Q range however fairs better for backrest play than the Salsa R2 does and looks neater too.

Powered Centremounts aren't worth considering for me. I've removed mine and replaced it with another centremount that's a fraction of the weight and more importantly size, allowing me to shorten the overall length of the chair considerably and give me a proper seating posture with my lower legs at 90 degrees. The 700R now manoeuvres like a dart, fits everywhere at home, locks down in my vehicle docking station and moves quickly and comfortably.

[Burgerman]

I dont swap chairs to use the lift. I keep 2 chairs in my room. When getting up I decide what I am doing that day and choose one or the other.

But you are right. If I had to have just 1 chair I wouldnt have lift. Not sure I would have recline or powered anything provided I was getting off the thing at halfway through the day as I am currently doing. Hard choice. Fortunately I dont have just 1 chair...

Today I needed it as I was indoor building something and wouldnt have been able to reach everything. Tomorrow I need to drive to the MOT station so the non lift smaller lighter rigid chair is the one.

Heres how much difference it makes.

Q200 complete (basic non rehab powerchair) with battery etc is UNDER 100KG
My Q700 with rehab options, is almost 200KG! (186KG)

[Flagmax]

Currently I do not use swingaway legrests when I am home. They get in the way getting close under to the sink, getting to/on the toilet or opening some doors. I put them on when I go out. So they must be easily removable and not to heavy. I might even buy a second pair that aren't adjustable.

Looking at getting these but with plastic flip up footplates. Not sure how easy plugging in the connectors will be and the chair need to function without them.
https://www.motionconcepts.com/pdf/e-bu ... sts%20.pdf

But perhaps I will forgo power power legrests and only get tilt, recline and lift.

[Burgerman]

Wouldnt a centre mount plate, with flip up footplate be a lot simpler? No need to remove at all. And also have no "corners" on the chair that inhibit movement into and out of tight spots?

[Burgerman]

And can just flip up out of your way. Or extend down to the floor electrically.


youtu.be/lS1_8nx0jo8

[thamesmud]

The lift is essential to me as it allows me to always transfer with gravity on my side. Also it's nice when out with the wife in a shopping centre to get up to eye level. It always amazes me how many people just walk into me with the chair down. I always put the chair right down for hills and use tilt to adjust weight distribution.

[thamesmud]

Wouldnt a centre mount plate, with flip up footplate be a lot simpler?

The quickie powered centre mount is great but gives a problem when used with a lift as the fitting pushes the seat front edge forward 3 to 4 inches which I didn't know when I designed my battery box and motor mounts so I won't get to use it on my current build, it will be stored for the next one.

[Marcelo]

This is the question. I have two that elevate, I really used it a few times just to make fun lol and waste battery.

In the past I always have had a chair, usually an old ove kicking around WITH a lift that I seldom used. Why? Because its useful occasionally when you know you are going to need to get up somewhere higher.

For e.g. look at my rooM, in the pics below. Much stuff on high up shelves. If I know I am doing something (like today) where I know I will need to access those boxes or things on the high shelves I will use a chair with a lift. Same if I am trying to clean my van. Or attempting to reach stuff on shelves in the garage. Also if I am going to somewhere I miht want to take some pictures!

But a lift has a lot of bad consequences.
It makes the chair way heavier. The lift module alone weighs an absolute ton. Worse it sets up high, and raises the user up another inch even if lowered as far as it goes. This causes enough issues as it is for battery performance, stabiliy, caster shake likelyhood, reliability, and the feel of the chair. It also causes the chair to feel "flexible" and not solid and rigid. Even when down.

So MOST of the time I prefer to use a much lighter more nimble rigid feeling chair. Its just nicer to use.

Now if like me you have a bunch of chairs to choose from, then you will want a chair with lift. Preferably 300mm or more. For the times when its important. And chairs without for when you are busy and going places!

However theres some reasons why you may NEED lift all the time. For e.g if you have say dressing bench, sofa, bed all at different heights in order to transfer. Or in order to empty a legbag into a toilet. Personally I used to just go outside! But thats not always possible.

What about you?

[Arima]

I use my lift everyday for transfers. One goofy thing is raising up, so I can reach down into the washing machine. My van tailgate is to tall for me to close with elevating. Always something at the grocery store is on the top shelf. It's just nice to have it always available on my daily driver.

[Burgerman]

Grocery store.
My usual one has a pretty young thing on "work experience" or around 18 and on minimum wage or something in the entrance way welcoming people in. I normally just commandeer her to go around with me and reach everything. If she isnt there I pick up something else and throw it at the top shelf to knock down whatever it is I am wanting. And catch it. Works great! I find a lift too slow for that sort of thing. The people that spec them all think we want to go up at 0.001 mph. And down at the same speed. Its enough to drive you bonkers. By the time thats actually happened I already have what I want.

[ex-Gooserider]

When I'm shopping I usually just recruit the nearest TAB to grab anything I can't reach... Never been a problem to just ask someone if they could grab me a single item or two... If there is a store employee, I'll usually ask them first, but otherwise anyone w/in hailing distance...

Just out of curiosity, is there any kind of programmability on the lift speed, or is it a mechanical limitation of the motor in the actuator?

I've been living w/o a lift for years, but there are definitely times where it would be handy...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Its mechanical. Faster would need just a lower impedance motor, and so the same 24V spins it faster. Or taller geared actuator and a more powerful motor. Remember that theres a 12A limit on actuators inc startup spike.

[faico_26]

Hi,
I have a new Q300R with seat lift. It is nice in some situations but it’s slow and not practical in situations when I need to raise up quickly. It helps like Burgerman said in some situations but the worst is the heavy weight and the WORST for me is the high seating position when it is down. For me this is terrible, because I’m too high in tables or transfers to the chair.
I am seriously thinking on taking it off the chair.
But on the other hand I need some elevation for transfers every day (to the bed, for example). Since many many years ago I’m using a homemade elevator which is fantastic. It is just an air compressor 12V and below the cushion 2 small pneumatic tyres. When I connect the compressor the cushion elevates quite fast and it helps a lot with transfers. It can elevate me even to transfer to a SUV as Ford Kuga or Nissan Quasqai. Almost no required maintenance, just replacing the tyres from time to time.

[Burgerman]

Well you just summed up exactly what seat lifts are/do.
And showed why it isnt always a good idea to add stuff on the order form just because you can.

Weight lots!
Height adds a couple of inches.
Speed S L O W which is really frustrating.
Stability of chair worse.
Stability of seat worse!
Range and chair climbing performance worse.

But when you need it...

Like everything in life, its a compromise - a choice. Pros and cons.

I like to make sure I have at least 1 chair with a lift. When you need it you need it!

[Burgerman]

Just out of curiosity, is there any kind of programmability on the lift speed, or is it a mechanical limitation of the motor in the actuator?

You can make it slower! On some systems.

But never do that unless it has a microswitch to detect end of travel. Such as most backrests for e.g.
Most systems with PG control systems like R-net use (on most actuators) the sudden increase in current as it reaches end of travel (begins to stall) as a trigger to stop in 50ms or 100ms. Setting it slower stops that working reliably and you stall out and burn out the actuator motor or physically damage something.

Why not faster?
An example.
A seat lift on my chairs for e.g. take around 6 to 8A. (12A max to accomodate heavier people) And 32 seconds.
If I wanted it just 4x faster, which is still pretty slow, that would be 8 seconds. Look at your watch to see how long that is. Its long!
So now I need a 4x bigger motor, which is hard to physically fit. And thats 4x heavier. And now instead of 8A (12A Max) its seating module needs to be 32A (48A) and this is fed by the bus cable! Which like the charging system can only do 12A max without melting... And remember theres lights and other actuators on that seating module at the same time! Its quite surprising it works as it is!

[faico_26]

Well you just summed up exactly what seat lifts are/do.
And showed why it isnt always a good idea to add stuff on the order form just because you can.

Weight lots!
Height adds a couple of inches.
Speed S L O W which is really frustrating.
Stability of chair worse.
Stability of seat worse!
Range and chair climbing performance worse.

But when you need it...

Like everything in life, its a compromise - a choice. Pros and cons.

I like to make sure I have at least 1 chair with a lift. When you need it you need it!

Exactly, I agree 100%.
I’m thinking that maybe I chose the wrong chair. The Invacare Aviva has a seat height of 43,5 and IN THEORY according to the order form you can install a seat lift. But I really am not sure the final height would keep on 43,5cms. I didn’t choose the Aviva because is longer that the Q300R and it looked like it didn’t fit in my parents house elevator. The maximum length of the elevator is 90cms but once the door is closed the chair should be maximum 87 or 88 not more. At the store we made the calculation and the chair was about 92cms approx with a person seating on the chair. I mean without footrest with the legs (knees) against the elevator wall and closing the door to the back of the chair.

[faico_26]

Does anybody know if the Aviva (European version) really keeps 43,5cms height WITH seat lift?

[Burgerman]

And its got a control system that has no OEM level programmer you can get.

[faico_26]

And its got a control system that has no OEM level programmer you can get.

So much better the Sunrise Q300R which I will be able to modify the programming!

[Burgerman]

As I tell anyone that will listen...

I personally wouldnt even consider looking at any chair that wasnt programable, at the OEM (or Manufacturing) levels. By me, meaning I NEED to own the programming tools before buying a chair.
That sadly over time has resulted in only Full VR2 or R-Net systems. The rest are now all locked down one way or another or too old today. And so that rules out permobil too. And others like myra (some chairs) that both use own brand components as R-Net system components so cant be properly programmed in the normal way.

And these:
Always 4 pole.
Always rear drive.
Must allow seat to be relocated back far enough as all front drives are crazily nose heavy, ruining them.
120A power module.
GRP 24 batts.
If it doesent or cant match this short list above its ruled out of any possible consideration at stage 1.

All the rest of the 1000s of alternatives and tick box options that are possible do not matter.

[Raro]

Does anybody know if the Aviva (European version) really keeps 43,5cms height WITH seat lift?

Forget about a 43 cm height with a booster seat on most chairs. Permobil chairs are some of the closest to that figure. The mid-wheel-drive Quickie chairs are also a little lower. The Q300R, with all the modules, sits at 49 cm from the seat to the floor. Manufacturers neglect this aspect a lot!

[faico_26]

As I tell anyone that will listen...

I personally wouldnt even consider looking at any chair that wasnt programable, at the OEM (or Manufacturing) levels. By me, meaning I NEED to own the programming tools before buying a chair.
That sadly over time has resulted in only Full VR2 or R-Net systems. The rest are now all locked down one way or another or too old today. And so that rules out permobil too. And others like myra (some chairs) that both use own brand components as R-Net system components so cant be properly programmed in the normal way.

And these:
Always 4 pole.
Always rear drive.
Must allow seat to be relocated back far enough as all front drives are crazily nose heavy, ruining them.
120A power module.
GRP 24 batts.
If it doesent or cant match this short list above its ruled out of any possible consideration at stage 1.

All the rest of the 1000s of alternatives and tick box options that are possible do not matter.

I agree 100%. Luckily I chose Sunrise with VR2 so I hope I will be able to program it.
We’ve moved CG to the maximum to the rear.
I have 4 pole.
Battery AGM 64Ah not so good.
90A VR2 power module. The guy at the store told me that I cannot bind a VR2 joystick with a R-Net 120A power module.

[Burgerman]

You cant. You use a r-net joystick as that matches.

R-NET I paid £80. On a lower bid. (Or 100 toy euros) Brand new ebay.

R-NET POWER MODULE £50 or (60 euros) 120A and SEATING MODULE UP TO 6 CHANNELS + LIGHTS. And connecting cables.

[Burgerman]

Or cheaper?

I paid £50.

[Burgerman]

COMPLETE SYSTEM, inc seating actuator, cables, 120 power module £100 (120 euros)
Which is rediculous. You just need to learn to fish ebay properly! And have patience and spare £££.

[Burgerman]

I have a lot of spares bought this way. Some of it here.

All joysticks new. Some of the power modules used but as good as new.

But to use it you need a programmer. And thats around £300. I have one obvously to match my 3 R-Net chairs. Its 300 essential well spent cash.

[faico_26]

I have a lot of spares bought this way. Some of it here.

All joysticks new. Some of the power modules used but as good as new.

But to use it you need a programmer. And thats around 300. I have one obvously to match my 3 R-Net chairs.

Wow, that’s really nice to know there are options on eBay to get the joysticks and control units.
There is 1 thing I don’t understand: you said that it is necessary a 300€ programmer, but I thought that a cable and software was enough.