PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[Burgerman]

Dont know how old your laptop is. But modern systems use UEFI system (instead of bios) and on those you need 2 things.

A small fat 32 section. And a large partition for windows and your files etc. And as many additional partitions as you may want.

So for e.g My 4TB drive in this machine has a hidden tiny fat 32 section at the start. A 256GB windows partition in NTFS (active). And a huge simple storage partition with about 3.75TB of space to keep backups, software, work, images, movies etc. on.

Like this:

Disk 0 is the laptops hard disk. Disk 1 is a memory stick. Thats also got 2 partitions as its also bootable and both can run windows full...

When you download from windows website, it offers to make you a bootable memory stick. I suggest you allow it to do that. And then install windows from it. It will automatically create these correct partitions, and a undr 1GB rescue partition too.

Then I suggest you then install my version of windows from INSIDE of this directly by clicking the setup file on the desktop. Because this is the easy dummies way to do it.

Unless you want an ISO and create your own boot disk etc?

Your choice!

[ex-Gooserider]

Not sure about age, but Wikipedia suggests 2008 / 9 or so... I get errors about the RTC clock battery being dead, but that doesn't seem to be a huge problem...

The BIOS doesn't say anything about UEFI, so I assume it uses a BIOS / MS-DOS type partition table... The SSD I'm using is only 120GB so probably would only do the minimum required partitioning scheme...

However I did find a home burned CD that is labeled "W10 official install" burned in 4/2021 - it starts up and shows a Windows logo for a few seconds then goes to a blinking cursor for as long as I've waited - at least 10-15 minutes... However it does boot a Debian install CD, so it doesn't seem to be a drive problem. At best it is an OLD version...

I do have some other spare Core2 CPU that are probably a bit newer, but they are all only 2 or 4GB RAM, this one is 8GB....

I believe the Windows website requires registration (at the very least) in order to download from it, which I REALLY don't want to do, so I'd rather do the ISO disk or USB stick route if possible....

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

In other progress -

I've milled out a bracket to hold the chair charger connector - I still need to make holes for mounting it on the chair, but I'm not sure of sizing / spacing of those holes so waiting until I am ready to install it.

the bracket - made from aluminum angle

I have also modified a DB-25 shell to hold the battery checker I made and posted photos of in a previous post....

TOP

TOP

and the bottom - the label I just peeled off the checker and reapplied it to the outside of the shell...

Bottom

I still plan to fill the shell and partly surround the part of the checker sticking out of it w/ some resin.

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

I may also have a disk to install Windows XP, and really do I need anything newer just to run the PL-8 software, Pilot+ and R-net programmers and possibly the Hyperion (since I have one).... I certainly wouldn't be letting it go online...

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

Turns out (somewhat) good things come to those who wait and wait... The Windows "install" CD I mentioned above did FINALLY actually come up as the install program, and I now have "Windows 10 Home Ediition" installed on the laptop...

So now what do I do to get the LTSC version you like installed? Should I try to use the one I have from around 2022, or is there a newer version?

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Theres a newer one. I think. Either way mine has a few new extras and fixes you will need so will upload later here, and will add a link in 1.4 hours. It will be 4.6GB so will delete after 1 day...

You just open the zip or rar file I will upload later. And drag the folder inside it to the desktop. Then run setup. But a bit busy for a while...
You MAY need M7XTQ-FN8P6-TTKYV-9D4CC-J462D
Look in the other folders for the other essential stuff...

As you install, dont sign up for a microsoft account, and dont allow any of its options that it will push you to do. Deny everything. So always choose more, advanced, etc. And de-select its defaults.

Then you disable the real time built in anti virus with a program included called defender control.
Then you run the medicine... Which is included. MAS 2.4. Self explanitory.

And then its a legal ish copy, and its also changed from LTSC to IoT version, which has support up to 2032...
GO ONLINE and it will install any missing drivers and do a bunch of security updates. And its JUST as safe as that junk you use now. Only its way more useful. And easier.
Then install FIREFOX and then uBlock Origin and never see another ad. Dont use its junk browser.
Go through all the options and choose everything and turn off autoplay etc.
Then you want office LTSC 2024, all the Adobe Photoshop latest, etc all just plug and play.

Then if you want to use this for everything and its a least 1,000,000 times better than the 1980s never finished pain in the ass garbage that is the linux (so why wouldnt you?), ask me for the software you need! Its all equally free...

[Burgerman]

All in one zip.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/doomed/10.zip for 24 hours!

Everything you need. Anyone else want a copy of 10, 64 it, IoT LTSC and all the stuff needed to make it work grab it now!

And copy this somewhere safe!

Theres a newer one. I think. Either way mine has a few new extras and fixes you will need so will upload later here, and will add a link in 1.4 hours. It will be 4.6GB so will delete after 1 day...

You just open the zip or rar file I will upload later. And drag the folder inside it to the desktop. Then run setup. But a bit busy for a while...
You MAY need M7XTQ-FN8P6-TTKYV-9D4CC-J462D
Look in the other folders for the other essential stuff...

As you install, dont sign up for a microsoft account, and dont allow any of its options that it will push you to do. Deny everything. So always choose more, advanced, etc. And de-select its defaults.

Then you disable the real time built in anti virus with a program included called defender control.
Then you run the medicine... Which is included. MAS 2.4. Self explanitory.

And then its a legal ish copy, and its also changed from LTSC to IoT version, which has support up to 2032...
GO ONLINE and it will install any missing drivers and do a bunch of security updates. And its JUST as safe as that junk you use now. Only its way more useful. And easier.
Then install FIREFOX and then uBlock Origin and never see another ad. Dont use its junk browser.
Go through all the options and choose everything and turn off autoplay etc.
Then you want office LTSC 2024, all the Adobe Photoshop latest, etc all just plug and play.

Then if you want to use this for everything and its a least 1,000,000 times better than the 1980s never finished pain in the ass garbage that is the linux (so why wouldnt you?), ask me for the software you need! Its all equally free...

[ex-Gooserider]

Thanks, I downloaded it, but the Zip was only 3.6GiB and there was also a "Zadig" file of 4.9MiB, not the 4.6GB you said - does this sound right? (ark - the archive handler I use on my desktop opens it w/o any error messages...)

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Never heard of "arc" or see any reason you need anything at all other than a web browser.

>>>Also "Zadig" file of 4.9MiB, not the 4.6GB you said - does this sound right?

Never heard of Zadig (or anything similar).

Also, just downloading myself to test, and it clearly shows (in all my 4 different web browsers) as the 4.6GB Zip file that it is. You can open that with windows itself, winzip, or winrar etc and it works fine... So not sure what or why you dont see the same!

So its something to do with all that weird shit you are using instead of windows...

If I look as I download, I see its called 10.zip, and 4.6GB.
If I click PROPERTIES of this file now downloaded to my desktop, its alled 10.zip and 4.6GB
If I open it with WINRAR in this case, my preference, I see the correct contents ready to drag to a folder or wherever.

[ex-Gooserider]

ARK is the default KDE wrapper for handling archives, so I doubt that it has problems. I've never had issues with it otherwise.

However going back to my file manager, I think I may have found the issue, hopefully it's fixable...

Brain fart on my part, I had created a new directory for the download today, and put 10.zip in it... But I also had an old zip of W10 and the Zadig file that were sitting in the parent and showed just under the new directory... I mistakenly took those as the new 10.zip, and that is why I had the wrong size... Now that I've spotted it and switched to the right file, I agree the one I downloaded TODAY is 4.6GiB as you said (and ARK opens the archive just fine...

At any rate, I have copied the wrong zip to a USB stick and installed it, w/ some problems getting it to activate properly, but eventually had a "legit" W10 Enterprise LTSC install...

I also got the PL-8 software installed and it found my PL-8, but I couldn't get the lead preset that was in it to properly charge my chair, I kept getting cell count errors - not sure why...

However it looks like I will have to at the very least download the RIGHT 10.zip and try getting it installed tomorrow....

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Its an eyesight and age thing...

And: Because all the default included stock presets for ALL chemistries are crap. Full of tight "error" trips and many other issues. Things that dont apply to our bigger packs. And stuff that restricts our required settings, times, max Ah limits, and cell or pack voltage upper and lower limits, voltgage rise and fall time liits, cell voltage gap restrictions, balance start voltages, etc etc. A years worth of fixing LiFePO4 and Lead. In both cases they do not have a clue. Because these things are 1% of hobby use and they are not interested in getting them right.

Delete all stock presets. Install and load mine as you need them, edit for personal use. Be sure firmware 3.5 or 3.6.

THESE are the exact same reasons that I advise people to use a PL8 as all these hidden variables and restrictions and things may also exist on every hobby charger, theres no way to know how its been programmed. There are phone books of code, written by programmers that dont understand batteries. Takes a lot of development time and effort to get this right. And years of bug fixing. I had to waste 2 years of my life with Hyperions boss at first, and then with Revolectrix later on when Hyperion disapeared from the market for 2 years. Sorting all this crap out. Testing many fixed firmwars and presets with changed hidden parameters. It was a major episide! Endless test beta firmwares and presets with changed parameters. As such you need firmware 3.5 or 3.6 and my presets as a start point. I did all this twice!

What are you charging?

I will upload some presets that YOU can alter that have all this stuff relaxed that will work properly.

At a guess, you will need a single lifepo4 one, with no balance lead for charging and testing single cells or sets of parallel cells?
A lead 12
A lead 24
A multi cell auto cell count lifepo4 one that you can configure?

Etc.

[Burgerman]

I suggest you install the latest IoT version, and use THE LATEST MAS version included. Over the top of what you already have, and do what I suggested in the text... Because it matters.

And rather than make specific presets for your batteries heres a load of different ones used for many things... That I regularly use, edit and change.

But this means check the settings! These all have relaxed dafety nazi stuff. Different presets allow different things. But these should be you starting point for ALL charging operations not the ones it comes with.

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/doomed ... resets.rar

[ex-Gooserider]

Thanks... Not sure where the preset I was trying to use came from but I think it may have been one of yours from back when I first got the charger...

Will also do the update on the Windows as you suggested... I do assume that I'll have to use the Windows browser thing to download the right FFox and Ublock versions - though I might see if I can get the files w/ my desktop and sneaker net them over... I also found I couldn't open .pdf's w/ my existing install, what do you suggest for a reader?

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

No.

Just download a copy, for windows. Save it to your memory stick.

Theres already a copy of it, in the ESSENTIALS folder that you already downloaded from me. I am thorough.

[ex-Gooserider]

Something strange is going on... I copied 10.zip (the right one) to the USB stick, put it in the laptop and copied it over to the desktop, and ran setup...

Took a while but it booted back up into Windows... But all the directories in "essential stuff" were empty... I looked on the stick and it showed them, but wouldn't allow me to open or extract them, I kept getting "unspecified error prevents copying the file" messages...

I thought I'd try going back to my desktop and extracting the Essential Stuff files to the stick from the original archive, so I could then copy them over w/o extracting, but it says the archive is password protected and wants a password before I can extract the files...

Any suggestions?

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

123 maybe I should have mentioned that!

Password is so that any server anti virus, doesent detect any hacks that make it "legit" as viruses... And so that windows itself doesent. Thats why you must turn off the antivirus. Hence the Defender control program...

All my software and all my rar files use 123.

[ex-Gooserider]

Thanks... Odd that the Windows box never asked for a password, just gave that unexplained error message... What I'm trying now is creating a new zip file, without the password on the Linux box - extract your zip to a new directory, and then make a new password free archive from the extracted zip (looks like the files don't compress very well - extracted was only 4.8GiB, the archives were 4.6) and try running that from the stick...

Will see how it works...

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

I THINK I finally got it working right - does this look correct?

Device name DESKTOP-NOL1RN9
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T9900 @ 3.06GHz 3.07 GHz
Installed RAM 8.00 GB
Device ID 9D877A28-C63B-4A7B-833F-535FDC82DA8C
Product ID 00436-50000-00000-AAOEM
System type 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
Pen and touch No pen or touch input is available for this display

Edition Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC
Version 21H2
Installed on ‎9/‎6/‎2024
OS build 19044.2965
Experience Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.19041.1000.0

Looking at the apps - Can / should I uninstall:
Microsoft Edge
Microsoft Edge Update
Microsoft Edge WebView2 Runtime
Microsoft Store

even after setting Firefox as my default browser, I notice that anything I click on for windows help items opens in Edge can this be fixed?

I noticed the Winrar tool (at least the version 6 that I installed) has a drop-dead date - is this an issue? Any reason to install the other versions?

Similarly any reason to do anything with MAS 1.8 if I ran 2.4 w/o problems?

Thanks for the help...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

The reason the files are confusing you is that they are rar files, not zips...
And there are cracks for winrar too... They dont drop dead...

Yes everything is possible! Google...

The older MAS cracks? I keep them in case. They do all the various Offiice programs too.

[Burgerman]

Lead give about 40Ah from the 74 @ the 20h rate, in the 2 hours it takres to do 15 miles at 7.5mph in your permobil. Then you stop. And thats while still a few months old. #

Thats 40Ah x 12V = 480 Watt hours per battery. So about 960 watt hours for the pair.

The 3.3v x 245Ah - all usable (no peukert) of the 230Ah lithium means 245Ah x 3.3 per CELL! Or 808.5 W/h

Thats 6468 watt hours per 8 cell pack. If you divide that by the 808 from the lead bricks, you get 8 exactly.
8X the range of lead...
So when I say 500% plus, that still really means with a huge amount left in reserve. Like 1/4 to 1/3rd the pack. For safety. If you were not too worried about running the lithium low you would actually get 8x the range.

[ex-Gooserider]

Looks sort of like success I think... I have loaded 3 presets from "relaxed" into the PL8, lead via XLR and Powerpoll, and LiFeA123/105Ah/LiFe Charge 8S 105Ah pack... Is that the right one to use for my pack of 6P8S 15Ah Headways? If not, what should I use?

I was able to charge my chair for at least a little while w/ both lead presets (I didn't do a full charge, but wanted to do a test...)

I've gotten the pack charging on the bench, and it seems to be doing OK, although I'm getting an increasingly wide spread in the cell voltages, w/ one going to 3.5V and balance bypass in just a couple of minutes, with others down around 3.4 and only going up slowly... Given that this is first time charging after the cells had been sitting for so long, I don't know if there is any reason to be concerned... (it has only put back about 2Ah, according to the cells display - but is that for the total pack, or per cell?

A couple of other questions -
1. Is it possible to get the graph to display more than one mode at a time (i.e. cell volts and pack amps in) Or possibly have multiple graph windows open?

2. Is it possible to make the display on the PL8 automatically cycle through the screens - instead of having to manually step w/ the buttons?

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

The reason that BMS and anything that balances below 3.45V doesent work on lifepo4 is because at anything below about 95% charged all the voltages are pretty much the same. The only time a difference in state of charge appears is when they are full. Then a full cell shoots up high.

This happens even if a pack is a quarter of an Ah out.


So now if your pack is say 4 or 8Ah out of balance then the charger will take 8 hours... Best bet is to charge each group of cells at high power till full individuelly on a frehly built pack. Or one thats been stored a long time.

[ex-Gooserider]

Well at about 4Ah in, 4 of the cells are up to the point of balancing, and two more are close to it.... The last two are way behind, but slowly climbing... I hope it gets to full before I have to leave to go home (we have rules about no unattended chargers...)

Then if I'm remembering things right, I'm supposed to discharge to around 3.0V and charge again to get an idea of actual capacity?

I also remember that you had a way to set up a dump load to work w/ the PL8 to pull the pack down fairly fast - can you give me a quick reminder of how that is setup? I have at least three big power resistors, 2 x 0.2ohm and 1 x 0.1 ohm, ~2-300W each... I'd expect that I could connect them in series for a load that would be safe but discharge the pack pretty fast?

ex-Gooserider

[LROBBINS]

After reaching full and balanced, for storage discharge to 50 to 70% of full capacity. If you are going to use them soon, discharge a few %. If already in the chair and ready to use, just go ahead and drive the chair. (Do not discharge to an arbitrary voltage).

You can only have one "active" graph pane while charging, but you can load as many of the stored graphs as you wish (e.g. to see how much was added back the last time).

[Burgerman]

As already said. I just dont recharge after tha last use. Until I need it. Then charging at 40A doesent take long. And of course a fast ONE HOUR charge puts back an extra 40Ah. And thats the same as you get from a typical GRP24 anyway, No need to charge full every time. Add whatever you think you will need. Charge weekly or whatever. And still leave some in reserve. I do charge full if I know I am going a good way. For peace of mind.

But think about this.

A 6mph chair can only cover 60 miles if you go flat out non stop from the moment you wake, then continue on for the next 10 solid hours! Without a break. Without ever slowing. Has anyone ever actually done that? And a 230Ah pack will do double that distance! So you literally cant run it low. At least in a day. Or even 2. With normal usage, say 4 miles a day, that still more than many do users do. Then you gat 25 days to a charge! So charge weekly. And still have a set of MKs worth left over for safety.

So back to storage. As long as you dont charge full, then ignore it for weeks to years at a time it will be fine. Even if you only remove 5% it will be fine. The ideals of say 40% charge for storage is fine to get unltimate lifespan. But overkill. Have you ever seen any lithium that drops to half its capacity? No, me either! IF it did, thats still the same as FIVE MK gel batteries as regards range.

[ex-Gooserider]

OK, I thought the idea of cycling the pack once or twice on the bench, especially in a case like mine where the cells are in unknown condition due to having sat full for so long, was to check for capacity...

My chair is only a weedy 4mph POS, but the pack is only a nominal 90Ah if perfect... (granted that's twice a pair of MK's but not the same as the monsters you can make nowadays...)

BTW, there is a guy in California I forget his name, but he did what is claimed to be a Guinness record of distance in 24 hours using a midwheel chair w/ a couple of the commercial LiFe units bolted on to the back... I'm not sure if he actually did as far as Expresso and Snaker have claimed, but he had all the witnesses and other crap needed to be an "Official" Guinness record...

(I'm not planning to compete w/ him.... )

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

How far?

You CAN use the PL8s 100w internal discharge easily enough.

Set it to discharge at say 5A, to 2.5V and it will actually bounce back to 2.7V ish. And once fully charged and balance just tell it to discharge and then let it do it. The graph will only work if your laptop is not set to sleep... But the charger will continue regardless. But you need the graph.

Then let it run. Perfectly safe unattended and I have dont it 100 times. But it will only discharge at 100 watts. Thats going to take a while.

It CAN discharge into a load, preferably a battery. If you have one that is big enough. (I do). But a slow discharge is more accurate anyway.

A 90Ah x 26V pack is 2340watt hours, or 23.5 hours at 100w discharge. So a day. At least if its healthy.

For comparison, a sat of MKs is 960watt hours (at 40Ah usable at the rate we discharge in use) so new battery will take you 2.5x as far. Or 2x as far and a little margin for safety.

[Burgerman]

With a 100Ah battery and a small addon pack expresso did 78 miles on his gps and had power remaining. So about 160Ah worth... That was in a high speed bounder. Which are heavy, and not great for milees per Ah. And snaker did more. And left vietnam...

[ex-Gooserider]

Well I started a discharge using the PL8 internal method, and the settings you had in the preset, 3.75A, to 2.9V (actually seems to be doing 3.5-3.6A according to the display... Down 18A in about 5 hours... showing 3.30? per cell... I'm probably going to let it run overnight...

I was getting a strange error when I tried to save the graphs about not having access to the temp file, but a friend has hopefully helped me figure out how to fix the permissions, will see if it works at the end of this one... I already have it set to never shut the screen off....

BTW, should I allow it to do updates when MS sends out a message about them?

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Yes.

Permissions...

I got sick of that nonsense years ago.

Open this.

Add_Take_Ownership_to_context_menu.rar

(937 Bytes) Downloaded 161 times

123 Password!!! Rar file...
Run it...
It adds data to the registry. And it adds a menu item to the RIGHT CLICK MENU called "take ownership" and thats exctly what it does for files and in your case folders... Then it does as YOU tell it. Things that you cant delete, folders that you dont have write permissions etc. A 1 click god ownership.