Input needed for a youtube show topic is power chairs

[fishinjunky]

Im going to be a guest on a YouTube show for sci an disabilities the topic is power chairs

I would like to know what you all think are the most important topics to discuss on powerchairs and when getting a new power chair?

They are going to have me on as a guest again later in the future the topic will be lithium for power chairs.

[Burgerman]

Maybe that everyones needs are COMPLETELY different. And practically no rear drive chairs in the continental USA compared to EU rest of the world.
And no easy parts/user repairability and useless dealers or techs.

My list of essentials maybe very different to yours.

E.G any chair I choose MUST fit and tick these boxes:
-Must be FULLY USER OEM LEVEL programmable day to day without a fight or relying on incompetant techs. I may need to experiment for days to weeks to get it correct.
-4 pole
-rear drive
-120A and preferably R-Net
-the seating options I now require.
-seat must be able to be moved back, to correct the crazy nose heavy setups that stock rear drive chairs come with.
-parts availability
-single post RIGID non flexi arms and swing away with joystick in correct position.
-Suspension...
-6mph.

After this list, and only if everything fits, or can easily be modified to do so, then I will look more deeply. At their marketing features/colours claims and other trivialities etc. But if that list isnt 100% complete (or can be made complete ) then its automatically ruled out before we ever look any further. Thats ME and may not be YOU.

Your OWN and other peoples needs and essential parameters may be very different. I think the secret is to KNOW what you want in detail, and MORE importantly, why.

[swalker]

Here are some thoughts

1. The US market is heavily influenced by what insurance will pay for. This limits the availability of new technology for most users
2. I want more torque, range, and speed, in that order. This will not likely be accomplished with 24 volt wheelchairs and with lead acid batteries. And, insurance will not fund anything other than 24 volt and lead acid, so there no incentive for manufacturers to introduce these changes.
3. The US market is mostly limited to having mid wheel and front wheel drive wheelchairs. The technology for rear wheel drive is mature. Why don't we have that option here?
4. Pricing in the US is insane. My latest wheelchair, funded via insurance, cost a little over $100,000 (in 2024). That was a 2024 Permobil F5. It is a pretty stock wheelchair with power legs, tilt, recline, and seat elevate. Permobil seems to largely dominate the market in the US. How can technical innovations make their way into the supply chain when entrenched players can sell old-tech wheelchairs for that much?
5. We really need right to repair. It used to be pretty easy to get an Rnet programming dongle. Now the only source seems to be used via ebay or such. And, starting with their Power Platform series, Permobil no longer supports using a dongle. Programming can only be done via bluetooth and a Permobil proprietary app. My state has a wheelchair right to repair law and I have been told I am eligible to receive the app, but if I make any changes to the wheelchair's programming, it "could" void the warranty. Great
6. Here is some technology I do not want!
a. I don't want my wheelchair tracking my location and sending that back to the provider (Numotion or Permobil).
b. I don't want my wheelchair to collect information about my wheelchair and my use and send that back to the provider
c. I don't want my wheelchair provider to claim that I have not used my wheelchair simply because I am riding it where there is no cellular reception (this has happened to me).
7. I want wheelchairs that are both reliable and cost-effectively durable. Over a decade ago, Burgerman replied to one of my posts saying "if you need a wheelchair, you need two". That was when my first wheelchair went into the shop for an extended period of time. He was so right. My wheelchairs break all the time. I just picked up my most recent wheelchair (the 2024 Permobil F5) from Numotion, where it underwent 3 months of repairs. In the 16 months I have had the wheelchair, it has been out of action for over 6 months. It is on its third set of motors, third set of batteries, third set of caster antiflutter kits and bearings, and its fourth set of tires. The AP unit (responsible for tilt and elevate) has been replaced, as have the joystick module, power module, seat hub (Rnet), and all rnet cables. That is just crazy. I can keep wheelchairs running a long time, but the amount of time and money it takes is very unreasonable.

I recognize that a lot of my ideas are not strictly about technology, but I think it is important to make folks aware of the things that keep wheelchairs with improved technology out of our reach.

Steve

[Burgerman]

4. Pricing in the US is insane. My latest wheelchair, funded via insurance, cost a little over $100,000 (in 2024). That was a 2024 Permobil F5. It is a pretty stock wheelchair with power legs, tilt, recline, and seat elevate. Permobil seems to largely dominate the market in the US. How can technical innovations make their way into the supply chain when entrenched players can sell old-tech wheelchairs for that much?

Because unlike sofas, kitchens, cars, ATVs, tools, and food and EVERYTHING ELSE in the USA there is no capitalist free market competition for powerchairs. Its all a system setup that is purposely over legislated, and runs on backhanders, and crony capitalism. And the same applies to all of your medical systems as far as I can see.

The REAL retail price of a permobil is much less than 1/4 of that 100k.
I bought several chairs BRAND NEW and built to order, e.g:
a) Invacare 4 xplore with 5 seating functions, inc lift, light, grp 24 batts, 8mph, brushless motors, 120A, and the smoothest ride of any powerchair I ever tested for 5k delivered with warranty and built to order. NEW.
b) my Sunrise medical Salsa, 4 pole, again 5 seating functions inc lift, lights, custom paint, 120A power module, 4 pole, etc 5700 delivered. NEW.

I dont buy permobil because a) they are twice that price. b) no rear drive options. c) odball electronics, programming issues, etc. But heres the real price. And I can get 20% off that pretty easily.

https://www.lifestyleandmobility.co.uk/ ... owerchair/

Heres the options list. If you tick all the best opions it adds maybe 3k to that price. Maybe even 4 or even 6k if you really try.
https://www.lifestyleandmobility.co.uk/ ... Form-1.pdf

But I pretty much garantee I still get a 20 to 25% discount on every new chair I ever bought.
So even if you manage to add 6k to a 10k chair = 16k, then I will get that 12.8k by phoning around regardless.

Try adding this up yourself and lets know the REAL price - not the USA distorted one.




Your big numbers are a nonsense. Theres a lot of backscratcing or other crazyness going on behind the scenes somewhere.

[Burgerman]

Salsa, sunrise, max spec.
Under 6k, every option ticked. 120A, 4 pole, CJSM2, delivery and batt, 10A charger. Inc warranty.

Invacare 120A, 8mph, lift, tilt, recline, legs lift/length etc and lights. Best suspension I ever used in a chair.
Under 5.5k delivered inc warranty.

The Dietz chair was more, around 12.5K retail, without any discount. And it includes 20% VAT that individuals dont pay.
Because the NHS bought it... Lift, tilt, recline, powered legs, etc and lights. I never tried to see how much I could have bought one for privately but likely he same sort of deal.

[Burgerman]

And this:

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 34#p214831

[fishinjunky]

Thank you all.
Honestly I think the best advice I can give is before getting a chair come to www.wheelchairdriver.com and do the research. There is no where else to get this amount of information. I know you all an this forum have helped me tremendously getting new chairs. An I don't want to be one of those people on YouTube acting like a expert an giving bad advice. They really need to have someone like BM on to talk about power wheelchairs

[Burgerman]

I would break the camera.

The issue really is that its a very deep and complex subject. It doesent really fit on a utube video. And most people dont want to spend years figuring it all out. So we get what we have now.

For example, on this forum alone theres well over 200,000 posts in over 12,000 different threads. Pretty hard to get that info or even a summary a 1 hour youtube video. Or even 1% of it. Everyone is different, has different levels of understanding, capabilities, and different needs.